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Author Topic:   Smoking-Gun Evidence of Man-Monkey Kindred: Episode II... Tails
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 44 of 127 (220319)
06-28-2005 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by JohnRay
04-22-2005 4:37 PM


Is this true?
In general, development patterns violate evolution (ie, homologous structures do *not* share homologous development or genes).
Is that really true. If so, that does falsify evolution.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 46 of 127 (220333)
06-28-2005 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 4:39 AM


Re: Is this true?
What about the following?
(eg, "it is the rule rather than the exception that homologous structures form from distinctly dissimilar initial states." Sys Zool, 34, 1985, 46).

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 50 of 127 (222052)
07-06-2005 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 6:13 AM


Re: Is this true?
Many of the genes important in the patterning of the fly wing have close homologues expressed in discrete domains of the chick wing bud.
So they have similar genes for parallel functions.
And?
The assumption is homology but why could we not assume the genes independently arose?
How hard is it for new "genes" to arise?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 75 of 127 (266680)
12-08-2005 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Wounded King
06-28-2005 6:13 AM


Re: Is this true?
Many of the genes important in the patterning of the fly wing have close homologues expressed in discrete domains of the chick wing bud.
So? How is that homologous? Shouldn't we expect similar genes for analogous structures? Seems to me the genes are just analogous like the structures.
What's the basis for calling the genes homologous rather than analogous?
More to the point, suppose the genes were different. That would be more expected for evolutionary theory because it would be a stronger case for genetic relatedness due to common descent rather than design. If the genes are just more similar as a result of common design, then that could just as easily be called analogous as homologous.

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 Message 76 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 12:31 AM randman has replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 77 of 127 (266699)
12-08-2005 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by pink sasquatch
12-08-2005 12:31 AM


Re: Is this true?
The argument, for example, for molecular studies to indicate common descent and nested heirarchies is that the only reason for genetic similarities is due to common ancestry.
So we see analogous structures, which would have been considered homologous, except evos cannot manage to fit them into a proper evolution sequence and so the claim is convergent or parallel evolution.
WK says there is a "deep homology" because of similar gene sequences, but all that really shows is that similar genes produce similar forms and features. So since we know these features are not the result of a common ancestor passing the forms down, according to everyone since evos state there was convergent evolution at work, well, then what we have is the fact that similar genes can occur with convergent evolution.
In other words, similar genes are not necessarily the result of common ancestry. The beleif that similar features meant common ancestry undergirded evolution, but some examples didn't fit. So evos speak of convergent evolution. The same features can simply be the result of converent evolution.
Well, now we see the same thing with genes. The same genes can be the result of convergent evolution, or perhaps evolution isn't really the answer at all.
If similar genes and similar features don't necessarily mean a common ancestor passing down these traits, then the whole basis of assumptions for evolution is very iffy.
What we have left is a clear case of design. Similar genes are just the result of similar design, and similar design, even according to evos, can emerge independently, and so it seems similar genes can to.
Why then assume similar genes and similar design are the result of common descent?
It'd be a stronger argument for evolution if identical features in convergent evolution were the result of different genes.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-08-2005 02:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 12:31 AM pink sasquatch has replied

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