Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
112 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus) (1 member, 111 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,058 Year: 5,170/6,534 Month: 13/577 Week: 1/80 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Smoking-Gun Evidence of Man-Monkey Kindred: Episode I - endogenous retrovirus
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 3903 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 1 of 20 (182711)
02-03-2005 12:29 AM


ApostateAbe presents...

EPISODE I: ERVs

An ERV is an endogenous retrovirus, meaning "virus of the past inside the genes." More specifically, it is a "fingerprint" left on a cell's genome after a virus invades the nucleus of a cell and scars the DNA. If the host of the ERV is a sex cell (e.g. sperm or egg) that is used in the host organism's fertilization and reproduction, then every cell in the organism's offspring will have the same ERV in every cell of the body, and the ERV will be passed down consistently from generation to generation.

Two organisms who share the same ERV in identical gene locations must also share the same ancestry. They must be, for example, father and son, brother and sister, uncle and nephew, grandfather and grandson, cousins, second cousins, third cousins, or etc.

Now look at the following diagram published by genetic scientists.

diagram A:


Source: Lebedev et al. via Douglas Theobald.

Each arrow represents an ERV insertion in identical gene locations of various primates. There are three ERVs shared exclusively among humans. There are two ERVs shared exclusively among humans, chimps, and gorillas. There are two ERVs among humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans. Three among all said primates and gibbons. Two ERVs among all primates originating in the continents among Asia. And lastly, two ERVs are shared exclusively among all primates of the world.

The ERVs weave a family tree connecting humans and apes that is identical to the family tree long-declared by evolutionary scientists.

diagram B:


Source: Richard Dawkins, The Great Ape Project

What do young-earth creationists have to say about this?

Young-earth creationists say:

quote:
...it is an unprovable theological assertion that God would not place the same nonfunctional sequences at the same locus in separate species. He may have a purpose for doing so that is beyond our present understanding [...], not all ERVs are nonfunctional. Some are transcriptionally active, and studies have revealed ERV protein expression in humans. We simply do not know all that ERVs (or other transposons) may be doing in an organism or what roles they may have played in the past.

--Ashby L. Camp of TrueOrigin.org.

ApostateAbe says:

ERVs probably do not serve any function useful to an intelligent designer, but it doesn't matter if they do. It wouldn't explain why ERVs are shared in a pattern that matches evolutionary predictions exactly. More importantly, ERVs, by definition, are the marks left by viruses. If instead God put the marks in the genes, then it is strange that he would make them resemble ERVs so closely.

Young-earth creationists say:

quote:
There are [too] many times that a retrovirus should be found in common species and it is not. For example, the RAV-O is found in Red Junglefowl and they expected to find it in Green Junglefowl and they did not find it there. study cited]

--JohnR7 of Christian Forums.

ApostateAbe says:

A few studies of shared ERVs among organisms (like the Junglefowl study) are rare examples of "horizontal transfer" of gene lines. It happens when a piece of DNA latches on to a virus, the virus travels to another organism, and the foreign DNA incorporates itself into the new genes. So why does this phenomenon not destroy my argument? Because horizontal transfers do not explain identical locations of gene lines. When an ERV horizontally transfers from one genome to another, it does not usually land in the same location as before. But the ERVs described in diagram A are in "identical chromosomal locations" (as cited by Douglas Theobald).

Young-earth creationists say:

quote:
...some ERVs (and other transposons) also exhibit an insertion bias. Perhaps this is another remnant of a more finely tuned system. Sverdlov writes: "...There were identified ‘hot spots’ containing integration sites used up to 280 times more frequently than predicted mathematically..."

--Ashby L. Camp of TrueOrigin.org.

ApostateAbe says:

This argument has slight relevance only if we assume horizontal transfer (described above), because insertion biases would explain only identical locations, not identical ERV sequences. But the amount of insertion bias described in the study by Sverdlov isn't nearly enough to accomodate the idea of special creation. If we assume special creation and the insertion bias is as cited in the study, then we would still not expect each arrow in diagram A to represent "identical chromosomal locations." And even if the insertion biases were 100% predictable, we would not see a family-tree structure in diagram A. We would instead see lines connecting organisms merely by geography.

CONCLUSION:
Your mind may deny it, but the DNA of your entire body contains a smoking gun. Monkeys are closer cousins than you may realize or have the courage to admit.

CREDITS:

--- Douglas Theobald of TalkOrigins.
--- Jet Black of Christian Forums and IIDB.
--- WinAce of Christian Forums.
--- Artists of the Planet of the Apes TV series and films.
--- Lebedev, Y. B., Belonovitch, O. S., Zybrova, N. V, Khil, P. P., Kurdyukov, S. G., Vinogradova, T. V., Hunsmann, G., and Sverdlov, E. D. (2000) "Differences in HERV-K LTR insertions in orthologous loci of humans and great apes." Gene 247: 265-277.
--- Richard Dawkins
--- ApostateAbe, atheist extraordinaire

{Added the "- endogenous retrovirus" to the topic title on 5/3/05. - Adminnemooseus}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-03-2005 09:32 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 02-03-2005 5:59 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 02-03-2005 12:23 PM ApostateAbe has replied
 Message 10 by Mammuthus, posted 02-04-2005 4:03 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action
 Message 14 by Carico, posted 12-09-2005 9:22 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 3903 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 3 of 20 (182721)
02-03-2005 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminSylas
02-03-2005 12:36 AM


Thank you. If only I had checked the Human Origin board instead of the Biology board, I'd have seen that there is already a recent thread covering the same subject matter. Forgive my presumption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminSylas, posted 02-03-2005 12:36 AM AdminSylas has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 02-03-2005 2:52 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 3903 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 9 of 20 (182995)
02-04-2005 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brad McFall
02-03-2005 12:23 PM


Re: ORGANiZational RE:arrangeMEANT
OK, Brad, please excuse me for taking diagram B out of context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 02-03-2005 12:23 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 02-04-2005 9:30 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022