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Author Topic:   The evolution of religion?
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 31 of 69 (405447)
06-12-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
06-07-2007 3:56 AM


Re: Make Of This What You Will
RAZD writes:
Another thing to consider in formalized religion is cult indoctrination techniques. Remember once the initial formulation of the religion has passed the dogma\tradition\ceremonial aspects of the religion are about crowd control by those who want to remain leaders.
Would you say that doctrine is part of the initial formation of the newly initiated? Tradition and ceremonial custom are not things designated by leaders, but by the body of the church, the members, and their overall culture. Dogma is not crowd control, it is a belief that is considered non essential or insupportable, and often springs from the crowd themselves.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 69 (405484)
06-13-2007 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by petrophysics1
06-07-2007 4:47 PM


Re: Religion results from experience
petrophysics writes:
Let's take something simple like ghosts. Disembodied spiritual beings are today and have been in the past seen by all cultures. Now even though atheists and fundamental christians share the belief that ghosts don't exist, that doesn't make it so. Also people see them, so they must be explained.
In my poverty stricken youth, I shared a house in London with some other people, including a guy who would regularly see ghosts in the house. He would also hear voices, and thought that he was telepathic, and could read other people's minds. Sometimes he believed he had a job, and would tell me about it with complete sincerity and in detail, although he was actually unemployed and probably unemployable.
He was suffering from severe schizophrenia.
His was an extreme case, but I doubt if there's any such thing as the perfect, faultless brain.
Most people will probably never "see" a ghost, some might see one, and some might see several, but the less you see the better, because would you really want to end up like my housemate, seeing ghosts all the time and with a brain that just could not be trusted?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 69 (405491)
06-13-2007 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by bluegenes
06-13-2007 5:35 AM


Re: Religion results from experience
You might be interested in the link drawn in this article
Political and Social Science
between schizophrenia and religion
quote:
The engine by which mystical ideation becomes cultural doctrine includes three primary components: insanity, evil, and feebleness of mind. The insanity is embodied principally by schizophrenics, though also by individuals with certain other types of brain disease. The evil is embodied by the power lusting second hander. The feebleness of mind is embodied by ordinary people, of ordinary mental fortitude and ordinary susceptibility to memetic infection. By mental fortitude, I mean capacity to maintain rational consistency, particularly when presented with a concerted effort to befuddle.
The ancients also had lots of stories of seers ... usually holed up and being kept.
There is also this article
Page not found -
quote:
In the new field of "neurotheology," scientists seek the
biological basis of spirituality. Is God all in our heads?
Which leads to the interesting question of whether there is a "religion gene" .... and what to do about it (versus, say, a "homosexual gene" ... )
Enjoy.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 69 (405498)
06-13-2007 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by RAZD
06-13-2007 6:32 AM


Re: Religion results from experience
Both interesting links, RAZD, and relevant to a lot that comes up on EvC threads.
The suggestion that the seers, prophets and visionaries of all religions, the invententors and perpetuators of religions, may well have been epeleptics and schizophrenics is frequently made, and I suspect that the idea may be as old as religion itself.
By this I mean that for every mystic visionary, there would also be the cynics (or realists) around who would dismiss claims like "I'm speaking the word of God" by replying "you're crazy, mate."
In fact, the "you're crazy" brigade actually win out in the overwhelming majority of cases, but if the madman is charismatic and not too obviously crazy, and perhaps in the right time and place where there's public dissatisfaction and desire for something new, then a major or minor prophet can be born.
This view of things won't be too popular amongst the religious, but there's probably something in it.
So is religion madness, a kind of infectious psychological virus?
Good idea for a thread, if there's never been one on the subject.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 69 (405499)
06-13-2007 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by bluegenes
06-13-2007 8:15 AM


Re: Religion results from experience
The suggestion that the seers, prophets and visionaries of all religions, the invententors and perpetuators of religions, may well have been epeleptics and schizophrenics is frequently made, and I suspect that the idea may be as old as religion itself.
There is also the issue of the "God-Helmet"
Holy visions
quote:
He built a Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator, starting with a yellow motorcycle helmet, and outfitted it with build-in electrical coils that can create electromagnetic fields in the wearer's temporal lobes. These are the part of the brain which are linked to religious belief, "time distortions, dream states and assorted odd physic phenomena." 5 During an experiment, the subject sits in a quiet, dimly lit, room. Soothing music is played in the background. A "gently flickering strobe light" is provided. The subject's brain wave patterns are monitored by an EEG instrument.
By 2002, he had performed the experiment on over 1,000 volunteers. 80% had some sort of supernatural experience ...
What "sort" is not discussed.
In fact, the "you're crazy" brigade actually win out in the overwhelming majority of cases, but if the madman is charismatic and not too obviously crazy, and perhaps in the right time and place where there's public dissatisfaction and desire for something new, then a major or minor prophet can be born.
And the rules of statistics would say that given sufficient opportunity that this would occur. Of course it is more likely to occur in ignorant\gullible populations versus educated\skeptical ones.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 36 of 69 (406582)
06-21-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
06-05-2007 5:24 PM


Why religion or beleif in God
Could it be that lack of explanation for natural phenomenon such as weather, life/death, sunrise, etc is reason enough for most beliefs in God? Religious doctrine would seem to come later. The need to establish law within hominid groups could also be a good use for God(s) once they exist. Did the belief start long ago before hominids populated the entire Earth or did it evolve on seperate occasions in different places for different reasons? It would seem a bit of a stretch for it to evolve much later when so many pockets of isolated hominids stretched the Earth. God and religion is so widely spread that one would assume it is a very very old idea without doing any research.

I think therefore I am...busy

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 69 (406591)
06-21-2007 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by numnuts
06-21-2007 11:59 AM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Did the belief start long ago before hominids populated the entire Earth or did it evolve on seperate occasions in different places for different reasons?
IIRC, there is evidence that Neandertals buried thier dead, implying religious belief. And since they are not a direct ancestor, that shows that religion did evolve on seperate occasions.
Therefore, god must exist (just kidding).

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 69 (406632)
06-21-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2007 1:46 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Catholic Scientist writes:
IIRC, there is evidence that Neandertals buried thier dead, implying religious belief.
Or implying that they didn't want dead granny lying around the cave, attracting rats.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 69 (406640)
06-21-2007 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
06-21-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Catholic Scientist writes:
IIRC, there is evidence that Neandertals buried thier dead, implying religious belief.
Or implying that they didn't want dead granny lying around the cave, attracting rats.
Well you wouldn't have to bury it for that and, IIRC, they were buried with ornaments n'stuff, like in a ceremony.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 69 (406642)
06-21-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2007 4:35 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Catholic Scientist writes:
Well you wouldn't have to bury it for that....
What other method for disposal of the dead would you recommend?
Maybe burial of the dead just coincides with living at a fixed location, where various kinds of sanitation become desirable.
... IIRC, they were buried with ornaments n'stuff, like in a ceremony.
How does the enjoyment of ceremony and ritual imply religious belief?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 69 (406659)
06-21-2007 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
06-21-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
What other method for disposal of the dead would you recommend?
Burn it.
Or throw it in the bog. Or eat it (if recently dead). Or let another animal eat it. You can't think of any?
Maybe burial of the dead just coincides with living at a fixed location, where various kinds of sanitation become desirable.
Maybe
How does the enjoyment of ceremony and ritual imply religious belief?
I think the ceremony and ritual, whether enjoyed or not, imply religious belief. Without the religious belief, its just a bunch of unnecessary crap, well even with the religious belief it is a bunch of unnecessary crap but not to the poeple doing the rituals. There is a reason for the ritual. Most likely, it is religious belief but it could be something else. Just for the fun of it? Is that what your saying?
Do you honestly think that the Neandertals had no religious beliefs?
Why would they bury stuff with a dead body?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 69 (406682)
06-21-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2007 5:49 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Catholic Scientist writes:
Burn it.
Or throw it in the bog. Or eat it (if recently dead). Or let another animal eat it. You can't think of any?
Do we know for sure that Neanderthals didn't burn some of their dead or throw some of them in the bog?
Do we eat our dead pets? Or let other animals eat them? Do atheists bury their dead pets?
Do you honestly think that the Neandertals had no religious beliefs?
I honestly think we don't know for sure. There's only a hint that maybe they had religious beliefs. Why would we assume that they did?
Why would they bury stuff with a dead body?
Why not?

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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 69 (406771)
06-22-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
06-21-2007 8:02 PM


Neandertals
Do we know for sure that Neanderthals didn't burn some of their dead or throw some of them in the bog?
It doesn't matter if they did. They could burn a hundred bodies and then bury one with religious ritual and that would suffice to say that the Neandertals had religious beliefs.
I honestly think we don't know for sure. There's only a hint that maybe they had religious beliefs. Why would we assume that they did?
Of course we don't know for sure, but as you say, there is evidence that they might have. We might assume that they did for a premise in an argument about the evolution of religion. But aside from that and just looking at the evidence, it looks like they did have religious beliefs, IIRC.
Why would they bury stuff with a dead body?
Why not?
Its unneccessary and there's better ways to use things than throwing them away. Your turn. Why would they?

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 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:02 PM ringo has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 69 (406777)
06-22-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
06-21-2007 8:02 PM


Re: Why religion or beleif in God
Do we know for sure that Neanderthals didn't burn some of their dead ...
Would this not be evidence of some form of treatment of the dead? Ritual is ritual, and there is evidence of cremation also being used by those that built stonehenge as part of their rituals.
The only thing that would not be ritualistic would be leaving the body where it died, untouched.
It doesn't have to deal with belief in gods, it can be spirits, especially of the dead or of ancestors (as occurs in many societies).
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:02 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 46 by ringo, posted 06-22-2007 11:09 AM RAZD has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 69 (406781)
06-22-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
06-22-2007 9:57 AM


Re: Neandertals
Catholic Scientist writes:
They could burn a hundred bodies and then bury one with religious ritual and that would suffice to say that the Neandertals had religious beliefs.
If burial with "religious ritual" was a teeny-tiny minority practise, how would it say anything about the evolution of religion?
Its unneccessary and there's better ways to use things than throwing them away. Your turn. Why would they?
Mental illness.

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Replies to this message:
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