Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?

this argument fails like the argument used against the nazis' 'i was only obeying orders' failed for the allied side did things under orders and they are expected to carry out those orders or face punishment. same for the nazis, they were expected to carry out their orders or be punished for disobedience.fear plays a part in many decisions especially when yuo are under the auspices of people who are tyrannical, unrelenting, cultish and so on. it is unrealistic to expect people to function like a free person when they are not; irregrdless of the fact that some people were able to break free of this hold on their liberties as people NOT everyone can and it is foolish to lump them in with those who can then exact a penalty on them for what they could not do.that is equal to punishing an eye witness to a crime because they were frozen with fear and could not act. it is just ridiculous and part of this mentality's problem stems from the totalitarian idea of law and order that is sweeping western nations.Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.Edited by archaeologist, : i never said i was a good typist

and you wonder why i ignore and do not respond to jar's posts. the above is just a flame post which has zero bearing on this discussion.

I said it was beside the point, not that I didn't care. I am still curious even if it doesn't affect the argument one way or the other. What is wrong with that? Why does this cause problems for "true christians"? Access to health care is one of those rights that children do have, is it not? Actually, yes they do. They have the authority of law. If the state deems that the parents are negligent or abusive then the state can appoint a guardian for those children. It happens all of the time. Never said it was. Denying medical care is denying medical care. That is what we are talking about. I would have no problem if parents used faith healers AND gave their kids access to such simple things as insulin and antibiotics. Not as broad as you think. In the case of Madeline Kara Neumann we are talking about something so horrific that I don't see how anyone could justify it. This is the 11 year old that died of ketoacidosis, finally."Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness."
Fox News - Breaking News Updates | Latest News Headlines | Photos & News VideosFor about 30 days this poor girl suffered pain and misery that none of us would ever wish on anyone simply because her parents didn't want to go to a doctor. You tell me that this isn't neglect. Broad brush my ass.

So you are saying religious parents are mindless idiots who are not responsible enough for their children to be held responsible for their deaths? Or should we shift the blame to god for not healing said children?

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Your god believes in Unicorns

I'm sorry that you consider it as baiting, it is certainly not meant that way.The fact is that Faith Healing is Constitutionally Protected and so I do not see how even when the result is the death of a child, it can be criminally prosecuted.However I do think that Civil Suits could be brought against the Church and the proponents of Faith Healing. If they make claims and then fail to live up to those claims, then it may well be possible to take Civil action against them.Finally there is the point of ridicule.While individuals that believe things like Faith Healing instead of Conventional Medical treatment or that the Biblical Flood actually happened may well be very nice people, those beliefs are just silly and the beliefs should be ridiculed. Such ridicule is unlikely to have a positive effect on the adults but ridicule is very useful tool with adolescents.It is only one tool to be used though. When it is coupled with presenting evidence and also encouraging children to challenge the beliefs of their parents it can and does work effectively.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

for those who believe in medical science:http://news.yahoo.com/...GxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDemV0YS1qb25lczM5 if he dies are you going to prosecute all those doctors who did not detect the ailment? after all under your strict applications of your designed definitions they were neglectful.i do expect to hear hypocriful excuses in response. don't forget that medical treatment is governed BY MONEY, if you can't pay you do not get treated. (in most cases) so would you also prosecute the hospitals for not treating someone because they did not have insurance and the patient was sent to a LESSER capable facility?

Of course that is not an issue in most developed countries. It is only the US and other third world countries where that is true.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Have you never heard of doctors being prosecuted for malpractice? If it is shown that these doctors were negligent then yes, they should be prosecuted. Why shouldn't they be?

So, he presented general symptoms, and only a couple of them, inconsistent with a specific ailment, and they couldn't narrow down the options to one that is rare enough to not be considered above most others without fairly extensive testing and specialist knowledge?Glad to see you expect perfection from your faith healing, then. As for us, the real world isn't so nice and humans aren't the epitome of 100% accuracy.

and if the parents are too poor to afford insurance are you going to prosecute them as well? we all know that if you do not have that little insurance card, one is denied care by a majority of hospitals. unfortunately those two words are very subjective and we all know that many state workers abuse their power and authority defining those words to fit the action they want to take simply because they do not like someone. {i found a link to the witch hunt i mentioned earlier}Wenatchee Witch Hunt: Child Sex Abuse Trials in Douglas and Chelan Counties - HistoryLink.org read the article and see what lengths state workers go to to achieve their goals. up to a point we could agree here but it depends upon the details of the situation. you are not going to get sympathy from me by playing the emotional card. people die everyday and in more inhumane manner than she did. doctors also have to inflict pain in some of their treatments, it is not a major point in this issue.burn victims usually need medically induced comas to survive let's leave the adjectives to a minimum please.i do not like what took place either but my liking it or not does not get to interfere with parental rights. if it did then we would be in anarchy as everyone would be accusing everyone else for doing things 'the wrong way' and all families would have a hard time existing let alone raising their kids.at some point people have got to use their heads and common sense to know when to back off. this last point does not go far enough but at the moment it is as far as i want to go with it.

lease do not use eisegesis and distort my words. never said that and your comment is far from the reality. if you know anything about cultic organizations you would know that it is difficult to free people from the hold that is put upon them by the cult leaders.jim jones used death squads or the idea of death squads plus other tactics. so do many cults and if the stockholm theory is correct many people after awhile side with those leaders and do not stray fromtheir teachings.it is not that they are mindless it is the fact of extenuating circumstance that prohibits them from making decisions they shoud make.for me, one should make very sure that God wants them to use faith healing in this manner but that involves the parents and church leaders/faith helaer to be honest with themselves and listen, test, and then act. why blame God? He has free choice in how He will answer prayers and if the people fail to do what He instructed it is NOT HIS fault. when it comes to faith healing i would rather err on the side of going to the hospital than make a mistake by misreading what God wanted.God will forgive the latter and then help us learn how to make the correct determination for the next time BUT i totally disagree with THAT 'church's' policy and i do not consider it a real church that is why the ''. that policy is not of God and should be abolished.

yes i have and their insurance rates go up but they still get to practice until they reach the end of the state's patience.but look at the attitude of M.D. that plays a role in the whole matter though his wife's attitude is a lot different which is where many problems arise for faith healers and doctors. they do not get the results they want and they go ballistic. some men do to but that is just an example to highlight the point.i should mention that doctors have been around for a long time and if you look closely at the gospels, you will notice that while Jesus was doing healing miracles, HE NEVER spoke against using doctors.faith healing is to be done to the glory of God not the person and it is not for everyone for you should notice how big a part faith played in many of Jesus' miracles--(except for the 10 lepers where they simply requested to be healed and they were and this story has another point, 9 didn't come back, they just wanted to be healed and we have no record of God revoking their healing so God will heal both those are true and are grateful and He will heal those who aren't)as for those doctors who practice badly, i let the state take care of them and do not press charges i simply go to another doctor if i need to.

i do not for God has about 4 answers He at His disposal. I am facing this with two of my cousins who medical doctors have basically written off because they suffer from terminal diseases and they need a miracle if they are to stay alive.God doesn't promise long life to everyone and He does not heal everyone because at some point it is their time to die. we believers do not fear these answers or death it is just sometimes we wish we could live longer to see grandchildren or help the spouse more or take care of one's parents.they are not old, just middle aged and have families but healing isn't always going to take place no matter what the age. please keep that in mind.

p.s. my cousins' cases brings up another point, when medical professionals write people off or refuse to help, faith healing is the only alternative.this past year two american hospitals had two people die in their emergancy rooms because they were neglected. do not know what the investigation turned up as i haven't followed the cases but you really need to be more understanding because when you point fingers, people will look at your side and see it is not better than what they were using.

You criticised the doctors for not finding a "walnut-sized tumour in the base of his tongue". Tumours are hard enough to find in the first place; the patient had only two symptoms that normally indicate many other problems.Why criticise something for not being perfect, when you do not expect perfection of your own supposedly better system?