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Author Topic:   A case for Natural Design
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 70 (227266)
07-29-2005 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by randman
07-28-2005 12:34 PM


You overrate the role of physics
randman writes:
There is no way to deny the role of physical properties that fall under chemistry and physics in the process. In other words, the physical design that pre-exists plays a strong role, even in evolution, of biological designs.
Really?
Consider your message to me. Do I need to know what editor you used to make up the text, or the brand of your computer, in order to determine that your message is designed to convey the meaning of what you want to say to me? Does it matter where you live, or what you had for breakfast this morning? Would it have had a significant impact on the content of your message if you were missing a toe or two?
There are things that I shall not take into consideration when thinking about natural design, because I think it is an emergent phenomenon that has its origin in a high level process called evolution. The substrate on which this process takes place is inconsequential, as can be demonstrated with genetic algorithms: they yield design, yet their underlying layer of physics is quite different from that of biological evolution, and they lack chemistry altogether.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 02-Aug-2005 08:51 AM

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by randman, posted 07-28-2005 12:34 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 07-29-2005 10:58 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 32 of 70 (227268)
07-29-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taqless
07-28-2005 8:06 PM


Snowflakes
Tagless writes:
Snowflakes
I think the fact that snowflakes have no purpose or function excludes them from the category of designed objects in the sense of the word 'design' I'm using. Snowflakes are examples of patterns, not "elaborate design". What function is served by the way a snowflake looks? It's just the laws of physics that makes them look the way they do.
Also, snowflakes do not evolve, their patterns are not enhanced over time in any way. The patterns may vary depending on the circumstances, but if you could make an exhaustive list of all possible snowflake patterns, the list would not be different now from what it would have been billions of years ago.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taqless, posted 07-28-2005 8:06 PM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taqless, posted 07-29-2005 11:54 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 70 (227300)
07-29-2005 10:35 AM


Oxymoron
"Natural design" sounds like an oxymoron to me. A design is a blueprint or plan, as when an architect says,"Here's my design for the new building."
Natural selection doesn't design anything in that sense. However, if you look at something in hindsight, you can say,"The hawk is a great design, with its flying ability and super sense of sight. Nature designed the hawk very well." The IDer looks at "design" in this sense, in hindsight. They talk about the exquisiteness of this or that evolutionary development and say, "There's no way this could happen by chance. The odds against it are phenomenal. Think of the extraordinary complicated events that had to take place for the hawk to evolve." But of course any evolutionary development is "exquisite," when looked at in hindsight. In fact, any event is exquisite. If my mother had left 5 minutes earlier at that train station, and never met my Dad, I would never have been born. What an extraordinary set of coincidences had to occur in order for them to meet just at that point in space time! Obviously, I was designed.
"natural design" sounds like a sort of Life Force idea, as though nature said to itself, "I need something with hands, something that can pick things up. Let's work on that."

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 3:47 AM robinrohan has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 34 of 70 (227309)
07-29-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Parasomnium
07-29-2005 8:07 AM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
A better analogy would be that you could not read the sentences on this page without knowing the words, and you cannot know the words without the letters. The lettering and individual words make up part of the sentences.
Likewise, you cannot ignore chemistry and physics because these areas play a fundamental role in the design of biological systems.
Take DNA for example. Chemistry plays a critical role in the formation and development of DNA.
Or matter; all biological life consists of matter which is governed by physical laws.
Physics and chemistry are governing factors influencing any biological design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Parasomnium, posted 07-29-2005 8:07 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 3:49 AM randman has replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 35 of 70 (227330)
07-29-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Parasomnium
07-29-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Snowflakes
You said your two goals were:
that there is design in nature; that design isn't necessarily a product of intelligence
First of all, snowflakes definitely fit this. Secondly, hate to break it to you, but snowflakes definitely have function and purpose.
However, I must concede it does not fit in with your neon green statement, in that it is not a biological system.
I must then conclude that you are following the same mistake of your "opponents". You are assuming that Nature gives preference to biological systems because you perceive yourself as having a more important function and/or purpose in the role of Nature than something like a snowflake....right? If not, then I guess you got me "swingin'".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Parasomnium, posted 07-29-2005 8:10 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 07-29-2005 12:05 PM Taqless has replied
 Message 41 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 3:50 AM Taqless has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 70 (227341)
07-29-2005 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taqless
07-29-2005 11:54 AM


Re: Snowflakes
You are assuming that Nature gives preference to biological systems because you perceive yourself as having a more important function and/or purpose in the role of Nature than something like a snowflake
I don't see this. It's just a matter of what topic is being discussed. If my topic is motorcycles, and somebody starts talking about cars, and I tell them they are off-topic, it doesn't mean that I think motorcycles are more important than cars. The topic here is about "design" in the evolution of life forms. Snowflakes are not a life form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taqless, posted 07-29-2005 11:54 AM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taqless, posted 07-29-2005 12:59 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Taqless
Member (Idle past 5913 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 37 of 70 (227378)
07-29-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by robinrohan
07-29-2005 12:05 PM


Re: Snowflakes
see "goals" by Pars.
But as I ALREADY stated in my reply to Pars I conceded that my post did not adhere to the neon green statement.
The critique was not about Pars's choice of subject .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 07-29-2005 12:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 38 of 70 (228595)
08-01-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Parasomnium
07-29-2005 8:03 AM


Re: Definition of natural design
I've been pondering this thread for several days. It has occurred to me that we are not far from a succinct description (though not full formulation) of the theory of evolution.
I find that extraordinarily charming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Parasomnium, posted 07-29-2005 8:03 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 3:51 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 39 of 70 (228665)
08-02-2005 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by robinrohan
07-29-2005 10:35 AM


Re: Oxymoron
robinrohan writes:
"Natural design" sounds like an oxymoron to me. A design is a blueprint or plan, as when an architect says,"Here's my design for the new building."
Not wanting to redefine the word 'design', I made it clear, I think, that with 'design' I do not mean plans or blueprints. What I mean is that when you look at something designed, say a car, you might think: "What a beautiful design! Just look at that streamline. And what a sophisticated layout of the dashboard." Et cetera, et cetera.
So, with 'design' I mean the way things look designed. If you look at a rock, it doesn't look designed. If you look at a car, it does look designed. Admittedly, some rocks may look designed, when they're shaped in nice rounded forms by water or wind erosion, but there is no purpose of function to that shape. It's simply the result of some physical process.
The design of a car however (meaning the way it looks designed), although it may have some purely aesthetic aspects, has a lot of functional aspects, in that the car's components are put together, or shaped in such a way, as to provide all the functionality needed in a car.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by robinrohan, posted 07-29-2005 10:35 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2005 6:56 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 40 of 70 (228666)
08-02-2005 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
07-29-2005 10:58 AM


Re: You overrate the role of physics
randman writes:
A better analogy would be that you could not read the sentences on this page without knowing the words, and you cannot know the words without the letters.
My reply to you wasn't an analogy. There is design in your message, and there is a physical you that wrote that message. But I do not need to take every physical aspect about you into consideration to know that there is design in your message. Likewise, I do not need to take every physical aspect about, say, the human eye into consideration to know that there is design in it. I'll repeat what I said before: natural design is an emergent phenomenon that has its origin in a high level process called evolution. The substrate on which this process takes place is inconsequential.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 07-29-2005 10:58 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 08-04-2005 12:50 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 41 of 70 (228667)
08-02-2005 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taqless
07-29-2005 11:54 AM


Re: Snowflakes
Tagless writes:
You said your two goals were:
that there is design in nature; that design isn't necessarily a product of intelligence
I should have been more precise and stipulated that I meant living nature.
Tagless writes:
snowflakes definitely have function and purpose.
I'd love to know what function and purpose you think snowflakes have.
Tagless writes:
You are assuming that Nature gives preference to biological systems because you perceive yourself as having a more important function and/or purpose in the role of Nature than something like a snowflake....right?
Wrong. I am assuming nothing of the kind. I am not perceiving myself as having a function or purpose at all, let alone that I consider the gradation of importance of it.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taqless, posted 07-29-2005 11:54 AM Taqless has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taqless, posted 08-02-2005 11:37 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 42 of 70 (228668)
08-02-2005 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Omnivorous
08-01-2005 7:58 PM


Re: Definition of natural design
Omnivorous writes:
I've been pondering this thread for several days. It has occurred to me that we are not far from a succinct description (though not full formulation) of the theory of evolution.
I find that extraordinarily charming.
Right. But it's not exactly surprising, is it? After all, I consider natural design to be a product of the process of evolution. The only 'extraneous' element in this discussion - extraneous with respect to the orthodox definition of evolution - is the notion of natural design itself. Not that I'm claiming the idea as my own, though. Daniel Dennett has already written about the occurrence of real design in living nature. But calling it 'natural design' might be novel, I don't know.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Omnivorous, posted 08-01-2005 7:58 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 70 (228697)
08-02-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Parasomnium
08-02-2005 3:47 AM


Re: Oxymoron
So, with 'design' I mean the way things look designed.
Is that different from what I said earlier? :"However, if you look at something in hindsight, you can say,'The hawk is a great design, with its flying ability and super sense of sight. Nature designed the hawk very well.'"
If it's not different, I think I am beginning to dimly understand what you mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 3:47 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 7:30 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 44 of 70 (228710)
08-02-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
08-02-2005 6:56 AM


Re: Oxymoron
robinrohan writes:
'The hawk is a great design [...]'
Yes, Robin, that's exactly what I mean. Sorry I didn't pick that up.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2005 6:56 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by robinrohan, posted 08-02-2005 7:59 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 70 (228715)
08-02-2005 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Parasomnium
08-02-2005 7:30 AM


Values?
Yes, but I said, "Nature designed the hawk very well." It's a sort of value system. Are you hinting at a value system? Design is good, nature designs, nature is good. After all, your own philosopher Dennet said at the end of his book, "The world is sacred." There's a value system. Something along the lines of nature-worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 7:30 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Parasomnium, posted 08-02-2005 8:32 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
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