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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Theological Creationism and ID ⇒

God exists as per the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA)

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Author Topic:   God exists as per the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA)
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 10 of 308 (517325)
07-31-2009 6:56 AM 		Reply to: Message 9 by slevesque
07-31-2009 6:51 AM

slevesque writes:
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The purpose of the KCA is that at some point something started to exist.
Which is exactly where you run into the first problem. "at some point" should actually be "at some point in time". Are you beginning to see the problem now? There is no "point in time" in which the universe did not exist.
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Either be it time or space, or the 'universe', etc. It came into existence.
As you can see, it didn't.
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This point no2 is usually never really up for debate, since it is farely obvious.
Apparently not.
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Thus why I consider subbie's argument much more relevant then yours. Unless you are proposing that the universe (or time) never cam into existence, which I would be glad to see your reason for this ...
It's because there is no point in time in which the universe did not exist. That's the whole problem here.
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I hunt for the truth
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 Message 9 by slevesque, posted 07-31-2009 6:51 AM slevesque has not replied
  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 21 of 308 (517343)
07-31-2009 8:59 AM 		Reply to: Message 19 by RevCrossHugger
07-31-2009 8:51 AM

RevCrossHugger writes:
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So now the KCA asks what caused the universe to ”bang’ or begin to exist.
"Cause" implies something "before". However, there was no "before" the big bang.
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I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 23 of 308 (517345)
07-31-2009 9:08 AM 		Reply to: Message 22 by RevCrossHugger
07-31-2009 9:02 AM

Re: Many responses little space time
First of all, there's no time limt, Rev, take as long as you need to answer.
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RevCrossHugger writes:
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Huntard; I saw your response in closing. I already addressed that in this thread.The word 'before' should be read as outside (time). Its a popular unfortunate choice of words.
You have evidence that things can exist "outisde" of time? Can things exist north of the northpole too?
​
I hunt for the truth
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 07-31-2009 9:56 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 33 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-31-2009 1:18 PM Huntard has replied
  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 25 of 308 (517353)
07-31-2009 10:53 AM 		Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
07-31-2009 9:56 AM

Re: God exists as per the Stile Planetary Argument (SPA)
Unfortunately Stile, you go wrong at the very first argument as well.
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Stile writes:
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1. Every point on the planet has something North of it.
The point known as the north pole doesn't.
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Nice try though, such sound logic is hard to tackle!
​
I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 07-31-2009 9:56 AM Stile has replied
Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 35 of 308 (517389)
07-31-2009 1:25 PM 		Reply to: Message 33 by RevCrossHugger
07-31-2009 1:18 PM

Re: Many responses little space time
Really? reasoning based on no evidence at all?
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If the argument is logically sound the argument demands that a 'cause' for the universe to begin to exist.
But the argument ISN'T logically sound. The premises are flawed.
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It follows that this cause is atemporal ie outside time if not before time (for reasons given that is not an accurate statement).
No, it doesn't. That's just your preference. It could very well be within time that the cause of the universe lies (hey, if pure speculation is allowed, I can say this.)
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So the only logical and rational choice we have is that the cause is atemporal and therefore outside time.
But that isn't the only logical and rational choice we have. The universe was caused by some event somewhere in the future. There. Now what? Are you going to assert that that just can't be?
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Edited by Huntard, : No reason given.
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I hunt for the truth
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 37 of 308 (517391)
07-31-2009 1:26 PM 		Reply to: Message 34 by RevCrossHugger
07-31-2009 1:21 PM

RevCrossHugger writes:
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Will someone hold my hand and tell me how to use the reply to post feature. When I use the reply tag, I get a blank screen just like in gen reply tag. Either something is wrong (again) with my browser or what am I doing wrong? Maybe I have the wrong options selected in my control panel? This forum is different than every other site I have encountered. Thanks
Use the small "reply" buttons on the bottom right of the posts you want to reply to.
​
I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-31-2009 1:21 PM RevCrossHugger has not replied
  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 45 of 308 (517403)
07-31-2009 2:13 PM 		Reply to: Message 43 by RevCrossHugger
07-31-2009 2:03 PM

Re: God exists as per the Stile Planetary Argument (SPA)
RevCrossHugger writes:
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Well there is no false premise in the KCA
Yes, there is. You have no evidence for the two premises, you just assert they are true.
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Subbie failed in his attempt to prove premise one wrong and I provided the reason.
No he didn't. You didn't provide a reason either. You state that EVERYTHING that begins to exist has a cause. Subbie provided you with an example of something that begins to exist, but for which there is no cause. You began talking around the issue. It is irrelevant if ALL other examples we have evidence of have a cause, you CANNOT say EVERYTHING has a cause.
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Statement # 1 fails. We do not know that. Its an assumption.
The same goes for KCA.
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If you claimed this to be a logical syllogism it fails with a much greater authority
It fails exactly like the KCA fails, you even said it in your refuting of point 1. We don't know that everything that begins to exist has a cause, that is an assumption.
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I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by RevCrossHugger, posted 07-31-2009 2:03 PM RevCrossHugger has not replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by NosyNed, posted 07-31-2009 2:24 PM Huntard has replied
  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 47 of 308 (517406)
07-31-2009 2:28 PM 		Reply to: Message 46 by NosyNed
07-31-2009 2:24 PM

Re: God exists as per the Stile Planetary Argument (SPA)
In the case of the SPA premise 1 (everypoint on the planet has something north of it) is not an assumption with it's answer actually unknown. It is false by definition of "north". The North Pole is precisely the point that by definition has nothing "norther".
Actually, that whole bit wasn't about Stile's SPA, it was about Rueh's argument for natural causes. I agree with you though.
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In the case of the KCA both of the assumptions that begin the logic are not known to be true or false. That is why RCH's cut at it with replacing the supernatural part is just as useless as a proof of anything as his first formulation.
Yep.
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I hunt for the truth
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 Message 46 by NosyNed, posted 07-31-2009 2:24 PM NosyNed has not replied
  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008

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Message 182 of 308 (518088)
08-03-2009 11:56 PM 		Reply to: Message 167 by ICANT
08-03-2009 6:51 PM

Re: Rational & More Rational
ICANT writes:
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Are you saying the universe did not exist in Hawking's imaginary time?
No. He is saying that the universe has existed for all of time.
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If there was no time, no space, no matter, no energy, no gravity, no universe there was 'no thing'.
There has never been a time that that was the case.
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That would be a total absence of 'any thing'
But there has never been a time when there was.
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The only way you could get time, space, matter, energy, gravity and the universe out of a total absence of 'any thing' would be for 'some thing' to cause it to begin to exist.
Even if your fist assumpyion were correct, how do you know this? What is your evidence for that?
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But the first order of business would be to provide a place for them to exist.
Huh?
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Proposition 1...Anything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence.
Unfounded assertion. And wrong.
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Either the universe has always existed or it began to exist.
It has existed for all of time.
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Do you or 'any body' have an alternative?
There is no need for an alternative, the universe has existed for all of time.
​
I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2009 6:51 PM ICANT has replied
Replies to this message:
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