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Author Topic:   Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also gun control
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 196 of 452 (521841)
08-29-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Legend
08-29-2009 2:07 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
what's that got to do with my right to defend myself in my own home with a gun?
Do you know, off the top of your head, the stopping distance of your car at 70mph? No? Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car?
What is your point here?
Guns are designed to kill people. They are highly likely do that in either capable or incapable hands (more likely to inflict harm on unintended victims in the hands of the incapable). That is, after all, the purpose of the gun.
Cars are designed to transport people. Unless in the hands of a maniac cars are not generally used to intentionally kill people.
Frankly Britain is a safer place without people like you (or for that matter me) wielding guns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 2:07 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 4:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 200 of 452 (521851)
08-29-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Legend
08-29-2009 4:51 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Unless in the hands of a maniac cars are not generally used to intentionally kill people.
Unless in the hands of a maniac, police or the armed forces guns are not generally used to intentionally kill people either.
Well what is the purpose of a gun then?
If you want a gun but aren't worried about the ability to kill people why don't you just get yourself a blank shooting replica?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Legend, posted 08-29-2009 4:51 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by themasterdebator, posted 08-29-2009 5:33 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 217 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 11:23 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 210 of 452 (521877)
08-30-2009 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by themasterdebator
08-29-2009 5:33 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Animals? If a wild hog is in my yard, a gun is about the only way for me to safely(and I use this term relatively) handle it.
My question was aimed at Legend. He lives in Wales. In the UK.
The last time I was in Wales wild hogs, bears, lions and other such dangers were not a particularly significant concern.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by themasterdebator, posted 08-29-2009 5:33 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 215 of 452 (521894)
08-30-2009 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Hyroglyphx
08-30-2009 11:01 AM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Hyroglyphx writes:
The murder rate in Britain is 15 per million people.
The U.S. murder rate is 55 per million, according to the FBI. Of those, 70% of murders were committed with firearms; just 14% involved knives or cutting instruments
So you don't think that there is any correlation between the acceptance and prevalence of guns in society and the number of murders? 15 per million Vs 55 per million. From the figures quoted by you to support your own argument.
Are societies that impose tighter controls on guns safer than those that don't? Surely that is the only real question here. The stats on this seem pretty conclusive however you present them.
Listen how the authorities in Britain were speaking about knives, which to you and I are just cutting instruments. They're talking about "cracking down on knives?!?!?"
People will always find ways to hurt each other. They will stab each other with blunt spoons if all other avenues are unavailable.
The question here remains whether guns make society safer or more dangerous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 11:01 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 11:29 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 219 of 452 (521898)
08-30-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Legend
08-30-2009 11:23 AM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Who said I'm not worried about the ability to kill people?
Well when you buy a car I assume that it's ability to kill people is something you avoid rather than look for? Thus making your comparisons of cars with guns somewhet irrelevant.
I really fail to see where you're coming from. Britain has the worst violent crime rate in Western Europe.
And how does it compare to the US whose attitude and laws regarding guns you seem to want emulated here?
I've experienced violence first-hand on a number of occasions and so have many others in my family and social environment. If you're really not worried about it fair enough, it's your prerogative, but why would you want to minimize other people's chances of defending themselves should the worst happen?
I live in Brixton in London. I have also lived in Merthyr in Wales. If you seriously think arming the population of socially deprived areas like these is a way to make these places safer then you are living in a fantasy land.
Does legalising guns make society safer or more dangerous. That is the question here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 11:23 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 1:55 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 221 of 452 (521901)
08-30-2009 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Hyroglyphx
08-30-2009 11:29 AM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Straggler writes:
So you don't think that there is any correlation between the acceptance and prevalence of guns in society and the number of murders? 15 per million Vs 55 per million. From the figures quoted by you to support your own argument.
It isn't the amount of murders I was pointing out, especially since there are far more Americans than Brits. I was pointing out the delivery method.
The figures (your figures I might add) are per million thus the population difference has already been factored in.
Nearly 4 times higher in the US than in Britain. And that is just murders with no stats on other violent crime.
Straggler writes:
People will always find ways to hurt each other. They will stab each other with blunt spoons if all other avenues are unavailable.
Precisely my point. So why hold on to the false belief that disallowing citizens to defend themselves will somehow be better for society?
Because the laws that "allow them to defend themselves" with guns are exactly the same laws that give the most people the best chance of effectively killing each other. As we both agree that they will inevitably attempt to do.
Have you ever tried to stab someone to death with a blunt spoon? It works up a hell of a sweat I can tell you!
Straggler writes:
The question here remains whether guns make society safer or more dangerous.
If guns or any weapons would have never been invented, society would be safer. The problem is that the reality of the situation is that some things cannot be undone, or if it is, it has to be done by re-training societal behaviors. And that of course requires reciprocation of all cultures, as wars are not fought in vacuums.
Which doesn't answer the question at all. Are those societies where guns are more tightly controlled more or less dangerous statistically than those where guns are less tightly controlled?
It's a simple question. What does the evidence say?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 11:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 1:55 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 236 of 452 (521919)
08-30-2009 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Legend
08-30-2009 1:55 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Cars aren't designed to kill innocent people, yet they often do. Guns aren't designed to kill innocent people, yet they often do.
Cars are not designed to kill people. Period. Banning car ownership here in the UK might lower the death rate but would also make travelling somewhat difficult. What effect, other than lowering the number of deaths, does the banning of guns have?
Then you'll no doubt be familiar with the Gurnos Estate.
I was a teacher at Pen Y Dre school. In the middle of the Gurnos Estate. At the time one of the most socially deprived areas in the country. I can tell you I would very probably not have taught there if your desired pro-gun legalisation had been in place.
If by legalising guns you mean making them available to the average householder and allow them to use them at home if need be, then IMHO society would be a safer place.
And the average householder includes, whether you intend it or not, exactly the sort of people most likely to use guns for crime if easily available. Madness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 1:55 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 4:17 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 237 of 452 (521920)
08-30-2009 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Hyroglyphx
08-30-2009 1:55 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
What the evidence shows is that there is not necessarily a correlation either way. The only factors that ever mean anything are societal influences on the respective countries. The Swiss are armed to the teeth, but enjoy a very low crime rate. The US is also armed to the teeth, and experience a very high crime rate. Finland has more guns than the UK, but experience far less crime.
It's a simple question. What does the evidence say?
What figures are you referring to? These are the ones I found on my first search for data via a simple google:
Gun Deaths - International Comparisons.
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0
Gun Control Network
Link writes:
"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate". Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa
If you don't like that source then this lists murders per capita Countries Compared by Crime > Murders > Per capita. International Statistics at NationMaster.com. The US and Finland are the two highest first world countries in the list. If you can find some more recent data I would be interested to see it.
Straggler writes:
Because the laws that "allow them to defend themselves" with guns are exactly the same laws that give the most people the best chance of effectively killing each other. As we both agree that they will inevitably attempt to do.
And how, exactly, are the victims supposed to defend themselves? You place all the leverage on the criminal who will find a way to procure a weapon, and leave the one needs protecting completely vulnerable.
And you would seem to desire a society where everyone is armed to the teeth in the rather naive hope that it will result in some sort of cold war stand-off rather than ever rising number of deaths from shooting. Society will always have crime. Whether people are shooting each other, stabbing each other or blunt spooning each other will in large part depend on the laws of that society. And the more effective at killing are the weapons accepted by that society the more deaths there will be. So rocket launchers all round?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 1:55 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 240 of 452 (521923)
08-30-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Hyroglyphx
08-30-2009 2:44 PM


My Mistake
I have just realised that you are from Portsmouth NH USA rather than the naval town of Portsmouth on the UK South coast as I had stupidly mis-interpreted. Doh! Silly Straggler!!
I thought that you, like Legend, were advocating pro-gun laws to be implemented in the UK. My mistake.
Whilst I frankly think the attitude of many in the US to guns is blinkered bordering on madness I have no real desire to get into a 2nd amendment debate. You guys can fight that one out amongst yourselves. It is a different culture with different priorities and a different legal structure. Which, although many of the same arguments may apply, you are going to be more familiar with than I and I am relatively uninterested in tackling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2009 2:44 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2009 7:24 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 242 of 452 (521925)
08-30-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Legend
08-30-2009 3:21 PM


Safer?
Would the UK be a safer place if guns were legalised in the same way that they are, for example, in the US?
On what do you base your conclusion?
Mod writes:
Cars are designed in such a way to avoid killing people as much as possible. Innocence is a red herring.
Not at all. Some posters here -most notably RAZD- have argued for gun control on the basis of 'innocent' lives lost, i.e. people, children, accidentally killed by guns. So not a red herring at all.
So we should make cars safer - Yes?
How can we make guns safer? Hmmmmm. How about making them illegal? Other than the ability to shoot people what are we sacrificing by banning gun ownership?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 3:21 PM Legend has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 247 of 452 (521933)
08-30-2009 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Modulous
08-30-2009 3:53 PM


UK Specific
I am not making an argument for or against gun control. I'm just trying to show you that you're argument misses the point and that therefore you are going to go around with circles with your opponents without any meeting of minds. Just because I think your argument is weak, or is a poor rhetorical ploy - does not mean my opinions on gun control differ from yours. I was just hoping to tighten up the debate a little.
Can I ask what your actual opinions on this (with regard to the UK specifically) are?
Fortunately, the worst I've had to deal with here in the UK are a few knives and bottles and clubs - the only firearm I've seen in the UK belonged to an ex-girlfriend's father. I have lost a work colleague after he was shot to death in my local Chinese takeaway.
I have seen fire-arms in Brixton pubs as semi-concealed acts of machismo on a couple of occasions but have never been the victim of any actual use. Or ever seen one actually used.
I am not entirely divorced from gun crime and firearms. I say this to point out that you not only assumed my opinions on gun control were contrary to yours, but that this must be because of complete inexperience with firearms. You did not have the information at your disposal to make this assessment.
My experience is exceptionally limited. Despite currently living in Brixton (supposedly the "gun capital" of Britain as per some reports) and Merthyr Tydfil (again one of the more deprived areas of Britain) at one stage in my life.
My guess is that in the equivalent environment in the US (Urban, poor, "black" by US definitions in the case of Brixton) my experience of guns, gun crime and gun death would be significantly higher.
So even in this inner city "hellhole" where gun crime and drugs are supposedly the norm I, as a resident and person who has lived here on and off my whole life, have no real experience of guns. That surely tells us the difference between cultural attitudes to guns here and in the US?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Modulous, posted 08-30-2009 3:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Modulous, posted 08-30-2009 4:53 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 248 of 452 (521936)
08-30-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Legend
08-30-2009 4:17 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
Straggler writes:
I was a teacher at Pen Y Dre school.
Well, it's a small world! Out of interest (and I understand if you don't want to answer) what period was that?
1995/1996. You?
Why not? If anyone had wanted to harm you I'm sure they'd find the means without waiting for guns to be legalised
So you don't think (apparently as a teacher?) that the need for schools with metal detectors as per the US is a scarey prospect? I had my moments at Pen Y Dre but being shot was never really a concern.
Straggler writes:
And the average householder includes, whether you intend it or not, exactly the sort of people most likely to use guns for crime if easily available. Madness.
People who are so inclined are already involved in crime, they're not waiting for guns to be legalised.
Some people are involved in heavy crime and generally speaking they end up shooting other people involved in heavy crime. This will continue regardless of gun laws.
However once every teenager with a bit of attitude has access to "dad's gun", a weapon and a consideration that would otherwise not be available, you have a very different society on your hands.
A society that I want to avoid.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : Spelling and year change - I am going senile in my old age!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Legend, posted 08-30-2009 4:17 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Legend, posted 08-31-2009 4:21 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 254 of 452 (522053)
08-31-2009 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Legend
08-31-2009 4:21 PM


Re: So why should I carry\have a gun?
But you have no reason to believe this is going to happen.
Well how do you intend to stop it? If guns are more accessible then more people will have guns. That inevitably includes people that you would rather not have guns.
Yes I do think it's scary, however I'm not pro-arming schoolchildren and I don't think that allowing responsible adults to own guns will necessarily lead to such a situation.
I thought you were advocating in your discussion with RAZD that students should carry guns? Anyway how do you avoid a dramatic increase in students carrying guns if guns become a standard feature of households as you seem to wish?
Yet, in countries like Holland and Portugal which have de-criminalized some or most drugs not only society hasn't descended into violent anarchy but has actually reduced drug-use and its side-effects
So what? Why would we expect the legalisation of drugs to result in "violent anarchy"? Why wouldn't we expect the legalisation of guns to result in increased incidents of gun crime? You are comparing apples with tinned carrots. What is your point?
We won't know the effect of de-criminalizing guns until we actually try it.
Fortunately this is desperately unlikely to happen in the UK anytime soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Legend, posted 08-31-2009 4:21 PM Legend has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 256 of 452 (522090)
09-01-2009 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Jon
08-31-2009 11:16 PM


It is amazing how a people can become so brainwashed into accepting life without freedom that they will even start to believe that it is the way things ought to be.
Gosh I know!! All those pesky laws stopping us doing whatever we feel like. Why don't they just let us be free to do whatever we want? Do they not think we are responsible adults capable of making our own decisions? Fucking laws. All of them. It's just the nanny state in action. Who do the police think they are huh? Babysitters? Laws are just the government's way of controlling us into submission. Screw them. Anarchy is the only true freedom!! Fight the power!!! Yeyhaaaah!!
So sad.
Or are some restrictions on freedom absolutely necessary for society to function? In which case stop making stupid statements and explain why whatever it is you are talking about (presumably the right to bear arms) is a vital freedom rather than an unnecessary danger?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Jon, posted 08-31-2009 11:16 PM Jon has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 258 of 452 (522112)
09-01-2009 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Legend
09-01-2009 7:30 AM


Facts?
This belief is just based on propaganda and the politics of fear rather than facts.
Are you saying that the facts detailed by RAZD in Message 252 are wrong?
Since when has the potential for individual accidents been a factor in banning an implement or machine? Never, as far as I can see, so why the double standards with guns?
It is always a potential factor. If the machine in question results in benefits that significantly outweigh the risks (e.g. cars) then I don't think many here would oppose the machine in question on principle alone.
However you have yet to make any fact based argument at all that this is the case in relation to guns. So are you able to make a fact based argument that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for your position? Or not?
I've lived in Southern Italy.........
Are you attempting to use anecdotal "evidence" in place of objective facts?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Legend, posted 09-01-2009 7:30 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 09-01-2009 12:00 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 268 by Legend, posted 09-01-2009 12:41 PM Straggler has replied

  
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