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Author Topic:   Discovery or Ignorance: The Choice Is yours?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 154 of 402 (474131)
07-05-2008 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 1:39 PM


Re: Projects
quote:
Now you are finally beginning to understand why the evolutionary model is not true science.
No, the only thing that we're beginning to understand is the true depth of your misunderstanding about science.
Science studies the past by examining the evidence left behind. You are free to discount scientific study of the past if it disagrees with your minority religious view, that's your right. You are also free to believe that if an event cannot be observed real time, it can't be studied scientifically. The good thing is that your believing it won't stop science from studying it. It will just interfere with your ability to learn. So long as you don't try to prevent others from learning, you're the only one who suffers there.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 1:39 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 8:23 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 155 of 402 (474132)
07-05-2008 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 7:19 PM


Re: Staffing
quote:
Finally someone understands what I'm saying, but it seems to take another Believer in our creator God to do so.
I am quite confident that the only people who agree with what you're saying will be those who share your unusual reading of the bible. That fact ought to give you pause to consider whether you are wrong, but I fear that, perversely, it will only reinforce your ideas.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 7:19 PM John 10:10 has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 158 of 402 (474138)
07-05-2008 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 7:39 PM


quote:
Many evolutionists state this up front by saying they do not want there to be a Creator God like that.
No, but some do say that they don't believe in such a god. But also, many "evolutionists" believe in the same creator god that you do. The difference is that they believe as a matter of faith, while at the same time understanding and believing what science says about how god works.
What's the difference between a scientist and a creo? A scientist is able to understand both religion and science and synthesize the two into a consistent world view. A creo isn't.
What conclusion should we draw from the fact that many scientists who believe in religion also believe that the ToE is scientific, but only those who hold a particular religious view think the ToE isn't scientific and creationism is?
Edited by subbie, : Ooops.
Edited by subbie, : Tweek

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 7:39 PM John 10:10 has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 163 of 402 (474145)
07-05-2008 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 8:06 PM


Re: Adam and the Apes
quote:
The key is not "mutate and survive," but be "reborn and live eternally in a resurrection body."
The legacy that is our as a result of Adam & Eve has affected all of God's creatures, not just man.
This particular forum is a science forum. Any scientific evidence to support these claims?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 8:06 PM John 10:10 has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 167 of 402 (474150)
07-05-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 8:23 PM


Re: Projects
quote:
The evolutionary model has not nor ever be proven;
Nothing in science is ever proven. If that's your standard, then nothing is science.
However, the ToE has been tested as fully as any other scientific theory, I repeat, as fully tested as any other scientific theory. There is no description that you can provide of science as it is actually done by scientists in the real world that would exclude the ToE.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 8:23 PM John 10:10 has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 173 of 402 (474156)
07-05-2008 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Coyote
07-05-2008 9:11 PM


Re: Pointless
As I see it, John has two choices.
He can assume that he knows everything, refuse to ask any questions or listen to what anyone says, and simply keep parroting the same errors he's already made.
He can conclude that he might be mistaken, consider the things we're telling him, and think about revising some of his conclusions.
I'm willing to make book on which choice he'll go with. Anyone wanna bet on the second option?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Coyote, posted 07-05-2008 9:11 PM Coyote has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 179 of 402 (474163)
07-05-2008 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by John 10:10
07-05-2008 10:46 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
What part of "science isn't about proving" do you not understand?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by John 10:10, posted 07-05-2008 10:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 07-06-2008 7:53 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 188 of 402 (474218)
07-06-2008 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
07-06-2008 7:53 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
The mere fact that you are unable to understand that science isn't about proving tells me that there's little point in trying to explain anything to you.
Science is not about proof because all of science is tentative. There is absolutely nothing that science has discovered that may not be completely discarded tomorrow if new evidence is found disproving what science previously understood to be true.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 07-06-2008 7:53 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by John 10:10, posted 07-06-2008 8:58 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 196 of 402 (474231)
07-06-2008 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by John 10:10
07-06-2008 8:58 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
You know, Chuckles, you're having enough trouble responding to what people actually say. You're not doing yourself any favors by responding to things people haven't said.
I never said I want to live in a world where there are no truths or absolutes, that's your own prejudice sneaking into your reading.
In fact, I happen to believe that there probably are truths and absolutes in the natural world. What I said was that anything that science concludes is tentatively held. Science may well have stumbled upon accurate truths about the real world. My point is that we don't know, and will never know, because there's always the possibility that some new discovery will be made that will throw the whole works into the dustbin of history.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by John 10:10, posted 07-06-2008 8:58 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:21 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 218 of 402 (474286)
07-07-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 12:21 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
Glad you are open to the fact that there possibly are some truths and absolutes in the natural world. What would it take to really convince you that there really are truths and absolutes in the natural world,
From a scientific point of view, nothing will ever positively convince me of that. I've made the point repeatedly that everything in science is tentative. If you don't understand that point by now, I can only assume that you are intellectually incapable of understanding it. However, I am about as certain as one can be within the context of science that there are regularities that can be found in nature that describe much of what we see in nature.
quote:
and maybe in the spiritual world as well?
As far as the spiritual world is concerned, you'd have to start with at least a scintilla of verifiable evidence that any such world exists before we can even begin thinking about absolute truths.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 12:21 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:35 PM subbie has replied
 Message 242 by ICANT, posted 07-07-2008 4:29 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 224 of 402 (474300)
07-07-2008 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 1:35 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
This is a science forum. Do you have any verifiable evidence of the accuracy of anything you have said in this thread?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:35 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 3:22 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 229 of 402 (474309)
07-07-2008 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 1:35 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
I'm afraid if you are not convinced by the truth of Psalms 19:1, then whatever else I can say would be futile.
I'm going to take this statement together with your lack of a response to my request for evidence as a tacit admission that only those who share your religious beliefs will find anything of value in what you say. Naturally, this is of limited use in the arena of science.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 1:35 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 3:53 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 233 of 402 (474315)
07-07-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 3:22 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
Yes, I have shown how science discovered and proved in the 1930's that uranium atoms are fissioned, splitting into lighter weight elements.
But you haven't explained how you know that this discovery won't be disproven tomorrow by a new discovery.
quote:
Do you have any proven verifiable evidence that the speculations of the evloutionary model actually occurs, producing species after species, starting from single cells to fully developed creatures?
Yes.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 3:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 4:11 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 237 of 402 (474319)
07-07-2008 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 3:53 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
My religious views have nothing to do with my belief in and the proof offered by true science.
If that's true, then stop dragging them into this thread, fer crying out loud.
quote:
Most at this ECV forum don't even believe that science can prove anything to any degree of accuracy.
My emphasis.
Well, those who know the difference between science and religion certainly do. But, those who know what science is and how science works do understand that science allows us to come to reliable conclusions about the world, and that those conclusions include the fact that evolution occurs, and that the ToE explains how evolution takes place quite well.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 3:53 PM John 10:10 has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 240 of 402 (474323)
07-07-2008 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by John 10:10
07-07-2008 4:11 PM


Re: John You Have Convinced Me
quote:
Even most of your evolutionist friends would have a problem not believing that fission of uranium has been proven to a very high degree of accuracy, and will not be overturned by some new discovery tomorrow.
Very high degree of accuracy? Certainly. Impossible that it won't be disproven tomorrow? I'm certain that just about everyone here would agree that this is possible, although quite unlikely.
The point is not how likely it is that that will happen, but that it is possible. That's why all of science is tentative, and science never "proves" anything.
quote:
I noticed nothing followed the "Yes."
The Yes was a link. Click on it to provide the answer to your question.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 4:11 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 07-07-2008 4:33 PM subbie has replied

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