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Author Topic:   Immaterial "Evidence"
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 12 of 154 (519673)
08-16-2009 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-26-2009 5:40 PM


Re: Why The
Interesting subject. Maybe the first questio nto ask would be 'Can an immaterial person have a detectable effect in the natural world ?'.
If we are talking about the Christian God, I do think that the answer to that question is yes. But the thing is, whatever effect he could have, it would be non-repeatable, and so all you would have is testimonies and personnal experiences.
Example: 'Jesus walked on water'. Now if that claim is a genuine miracle, whoever saw it would have seen it with his eyes and so with one of his physical senses. If it is not genuine, then it could just be a figment of the persons imagination. Either way, all you have is testimonies and personnal experiences, and in my opinion, that is always what you are going to get.
Now the question is, can you go from this 'subjective evidence', as RAZD calls them, and conclude a positive statement about the reality of the existence of an immaterial being ?
The only way I could see this question being answered by a 'yes' would be through an impecable 'police investigation' kind of process on a particular claim. How many eye-witnesss accounts of the event ? How reliable are these eye-witness accounts ? Is there a possible physical explanation to the event ? etc. etc.
All in all, I consider this to be very difficult to do for any given claim, and so I think that miracle-claim can only reinforce (rightly or wrongly) a pre-existing belief in the supernatural, and cannot necessarily be the starting point of such a belief.
On another note, this does not mean that I do not believe that the existence of God cannot be supported by objective facts, but you determined this as off-topic in your OP, so I won't go any further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2009 5:40 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2009 11:40 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 17 of 154 (519762)
08-17-2009 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
08-16-2009 11:40 AM


Re: Why The
Isn't seeing someone walking on water a subjective experience ? (In that all you will have as empirical evidence will be my word for it)
Or do you define a subjective experience as an experience that excludes the physical senses ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2009 11:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2009 2:00 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4751 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 23 of 154 (519861)
08-17-2009 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Straggler
08-17-2009 2:00 PM


Re: The Topic
Would a ghost be considered an immaterial entity ? because all ghost reports are made with someone seeing them with their eyes, and so one of their material senses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2009 2:00 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2009 10:50 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 27 by anglagard, posted 08-18-2009 3:37 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 08-18-2009 12:37 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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