If you were God, what kind of God would you be?

In reply to the earlier hypothetical; Add another to the growing list of those who say "Absolutely not!" Anyone who needs to consult an ancient book to work out the answer to this question cannot possibly hold any sort of moral compass at all. And to return to the OP - if I were god then I would ensure all humans would have this inbuilt moral compass so they didn't need to constantly seek guidance that i pervesely refuse so often to answer.My very first post here by the way; the subject matter incensed me into action....

Dr Adequate quote: Ah...but you don't need to go to the trouble of marying Suzy Dr. A.From Judges 19:24 (where a man defends a male visitor to his home who is about to be gang raped by the mob!)"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not do so vile a thing"The unhappy endidng for the concubine is that she was gang-raped and was dead by morning whereupon her 'lord' cut her up into 12 pieces and sent them into the coasts of Israel.So forced gang rape, murder then multilation of the body - Peg if you have read passages such as the above - how on earth with any sanity at all can you justify this mindless book you call a bible? Any woman reading the above should shiver at that phrase 'humble ye them'...I can't think of a more sinister phrase in any literature anywhere! If you are really holding up the bible as a source of morality it surely can only mean one of the following:1) You have read so little of the text that you have never come across descriptions like the quoted passage (the bible is full of such abominations).
2) You have read some or all of these passages but are unable to understand the context in which it is used (you do understand what the biblical phrase 'to know a woman' refers to don't you?)
3) You understand and actually approve of the text - in which case you have absolutely no moral compass at all in our 21st century - perhaps you'd rather be in the middle east 2000 years ago!Sorry if I sound so harsh but if you can't see what Dr. A has been driving at re Suzy there really is no hope for you....

quote from Peg: But channel 10 doesn't ascribe any morality to the reporting - they just report it as fact. However fundies are always telling us that you can only be moral if you follow the word of the bible; that we need God and the bible to tell us how to behave and how moral and righteous God is. Really?So God didn't tell Moses to hotfoot it down Mount Sinai and put to death over 3000 men,women and children for the appaling sin of making and worshipping a molten calf?He didn't tell the sycophantic Abraham to burn his son Isaac on a pyre - only to retract at the last minute....only joking Isaac old boy? I have no intention - merely a question: How can anyone hold up the bible as a lesson in morality? If the bible is just reporting facts (in the nature of channel 10) why would anyone try to draw moral lessons from it? If it is not true and meant instead as fables to draw on - then how does one draw morality from it? As an allegory?...then an allegory for what - nothing praiseworthy surely? And what moral lessons can be drawn from authoritative figures like God behaving in ways that would see modern humans locked away for life?Or are you saying we modern humans have it all wrong and we need to go back to the words and acts of the god of the Old Testament?When religous zealots try telling the rest of us we are sinners and can only be saved by following the word and ways of God then I think it's only fair that first you justify the way in which the bible is used as a morality check list.....good luck !

Peg quotes: But don't we teach by example? You've boxed yourself in well and truly now Peg. Can you explain please how God can hold the moral ground by having those 3000 killed for worshipping a graven image (golden calf)?I would be particularly interested in your explanation of the following points in a moralistic framework that you think makes sense:1) Why were people not allowed to have their own 'gods'? Why is it so evil to worship Baal and his golden calf? (p.s. if you try to say it's because Baal is/was evil I will make you try to empirically justify your assertion so be very careful what you say).2) How can the death of 3000 people be moral especially when practised by an omnipotent being who should know better? - After all Peg you are mentally omnipotent compared to a 3 year old but i'm sure there is nothing that that 3 yr old could possibly do that would make you kill them !!!3) The 3000 people killed - not to mention all those in Soddom, Gomorah and Jerricho included countless numbers of children and babies. What crime against God could possibly justify the killing of such youngsters?Face it Peg your God is one sick bastard - and if you seriously stand by your quote above then the religious indoctrination you have obviously been subjected to in your earlier life has been thorough and effective. I believe you cannot see what is morally wrong because you have internalised your religous beliefs and the moral actions of your bible God are now deeply ingrained in you. For this as much as any other reason I am deeply against religous indoctrination in a school environment....deeply worrying!

Quote from Peg: And for that they had to die?? are you completely insane? to assume there were no women and children among the 3000 is unwaranted to say the least - even if there wasn't, you are arguing for a God who kills on a whim on nothing of value. Here we have the supposed God who created the vastness of space, the billions of plantets and stars, the vast array of animals, plants and all of eath's ecosytems which he continually holds in check ....and he needs to wipe out 3000 naughty people for a minor infarction involving belief?????And if there are children in those numbers it is absolutely contemptible (and there were most certainly women,children and babies in Sodom, Gomorah & Jerricho - to name but a few of the multitudes of cities/towns that the Israelites wiped out). There is NO excuse under the sun you can come up with that makes it right to murder children and babies...did you get that Peg?....NO excuse so the following statement, ...is sick beyond belief. Any supernatural being who feels the need to wipe out children and babies for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER is utterly beneath contempt (as is anyone who believes and follows this doctrine)and our humanist moral values puts your God into the deepest disgrace possible...he is an ethnic-cleanising genocidal monster.Ethnic-cleanser? I hear you say; are you aware the caananites were dark-skinned (supposedly related to Ham - Noah's 'black sheep of the family' son)? The Israelites coined caananites generally as African descent people....So now you are proving what a racial bigot you are Peg, having proved already that you are a general bigot...this is not a pretty sight and I bet your ravings are going to make this worse as we proceed. If only you could read your words with a clear rational non-indoctrinated mind you would surely blush with the deepest embarrassment at what you are saying. no doubt you think that with each outpouring about the ways and practices of your God you will make us see the light....but all it shows is how deep and intractable your religion has got you gripped. Sorry to sound mean here ...but I simply do not believe you - I think your indoctrination started young and hard. It is possible for a person who had had little experience of religion to become hooked into a religous cult - but it doesn't happen often. You see Peg, the vast majority of people who make it to adulthood without religous instruction do not go on to become a religious fanatic...because their rationality is intact and they usually stay away from this unsavoury business...I am a classic example. My parents brought me up in a secular environment and the only religous education I received was the compulsory R.E classes in school. Consequently I have arrived at adulthood without the baggage of indoctrination that so many others receive perforce of their parents insistence/desires, and i consider myself very very fortunate to have been given this fredom of thought from childhood to adulthood.The Jews even have a statement about this: "Give me the boy for 7 years and I'll give you the man."....An indoctrinated Jewish man of course!Do you see now why from my previous post I am so against children being indoctrinated in religion? - it's because if it is done thoroughly then it results in people like you...unable to differentiatate between true good and evil, with no moral compass and a willingness to defend the death of babies and children with drivel like "Well God must have had a reason!" I can only reply with "And once Peg probably had a rational thinking brain!"[note to the moderators: Sorry if this sounds hard - but Peg did say
it was OK and I do feel very stronly about this - ]

Quote: As GM has already stated above - your comparison is pure junk. No wars started by man has, that I know of, been with the intention to wipe out babies and children - even the Nazis followed Geneva convention rules.But your genocidal maniacal God who presumably has the omnipotent power to wipe out only those who cause his 'wrath' still takes out babies and children....what a moral coward and complete waste of space....no excuses for there is none that can be given.And whilst we are on the subject of man-made wars lets not forget that a great many of them have been fomented over the business of religion in the first place. It seems Peg that your brand of religious indoctrination leads to intolerance,injustice and racial dislike (for all wars bar civil wars are by definition racial).Once more I thank my lucky stars that I wasn't brought up an indoctrinated bigoted irrational racially intolerant sad excuse for a religous cause. There is no difference in my opinion between you and those who took out the twin towers save for a different slant on 'God'.I don't believe you've answered Huntard's query yet..."If God instructed you in a dream to kill others would you?" If the answer is "Yes" I think we have come to the end of the road with you. If the answer is "No" please justify why you feel able to disobey your God, and if the answer is maybe, buts, ifs and conditional answers then again why do you not just obey - as he is the all powerful being who knows what's best ....isn't he???

Peg quote: Unbelievable! The only one guilty of mindblowing naiviety is you Peg. The Nazis did follow Geneva convention rules for their considered prisoners of war (American, English etc soldiers). British POW's in even the toughest prisons reported being generally well treated, though the Japanese certainly had a different slant on prisoners).When you refer to the gas chambers you are referring to the 'Final Solution' concerning Jews and this was ironically not a war situation but a philosophical remit from Hitler himself....a statement from the top to be obeyed not as part of a war but as an idealogical principle passed down to the masses....sound familiar? Hitler was viewed by most of the German people as THE Fuhrer, almost a God (and he DID say he was doing this all in the name of the Almighty God just in case you try telling me that he was an atheist - which he most certinly was not). Did you know the SS wore belt buckles with "God is with us" inscribed in the metal? You might say that doesn't mean God personally approved but that isn't the point - the point is that the Germans who carried out the gas chamber attrocitities thought they were doing it with God's approval - with Hitler as the chosen one to carry His word (rather like Moses 2000 years ago eh!). So the fact religion exists meant it could be used to legitimately allow those attrocities that would have been very difficult to justify otherwise.There are evil humans in this world, and there are good people in this world Peg....but to make a good person do evil things takes religion. To set up then run the huge gas chamber operation required the duplicity and efforts of thousands. How do you think thousands of Germans co-operated in that venture Peg? Are you saying that basically Germany was full of pyschopaths ....or, far more likely, did basically decent people get brainwashed in a religous fervour to follow Hitler with the assumption of God's approval tacitly given?It makes no difference if you try to protest that God had nothing to do with it - for two reasons:1) Even if God personally didn't know what was going on (ludicrous suggestion for an all omnipotent being) then the man-made construct of God is still evil in that it allows humans to abandon all morality - just as you regularly do when you say "I don't know why God kills babies and children - but He must have a reason".2) Why wouldn't God personally intervene and stop the gas chamber horrors if He is real? If you come back with "The Jews must deserve this according to God" then your pyschopathic mind is fully revealed....for yes babies and children were in those gas chambers.Summary:1. When a religous ideal is not involved humans as a group tend to behave largely ethically - English/American prisoners treated fairly in WW2.2. Add a zealous mandate from an awe-inspiring leader into the mix and say it comes from God then you can do anything you want and throw any morality out of the window under the guise "God has told us and he must be right".If God came to you tonight Peg, and you were convinced it was Him - and he told you to kill the first toddler you see tomorrow - would you do it? Don't respond by saying "but he wouldn't say that" - because he sanctioned just that action countless times in the bible so he's got a good track record he could do exactly that - so would you kill a toddler on the whim of God?

ROTFLMAO!You're a real classic Peg I have to hand you that...tell me if you recognise the tyrannical abuse of power in human individuals such as Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler...how does it completely escape you when your God does exactly the same?Furthrmore - where in our humansist moral codes do we say humans should follow the edicts of Pol Pot, Stalin etc? Whereas you would have us happily marching to the tune of your genocidal, infanticidal ethnic cleansing monster if you had your way.I'm now wondering whether you are schizophrenic, sociopathic or just indoctrinated to the hilt...sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference... which takes me back to the long-forgotten OP:I'd be a God who allowed my subjects full rational use of their mind...

As a group atheists DO act with moral intention. You can't uphold individuals and hang a world philosophy on their individual actions. Stalin was an atheist and a monster. Hitler believed in God and was a monster...you wouldn't indict your God on the actions of Hitler would you?...any more than you should indict atheism on the actions of Stalin.But your God stands accused of the horrors he had comitted by his own words/actions - the words of the bible.Tell me again how 'his righteousness' involves killing babies and children - i keep missing your point on this one (probably because you haven't made one yet)...

Pegs reply to Coragyps: A test of faith...the mind boggles!!! And what pyschological scarring was left with poor Isaac? Tell me Peg are you a parent? If you are (and hypothetical question now if you are not)- would you put your son or daughter on a pyre of wood and be ready to set light to it...even if you truly believed God would intervene and say "Only kidding - it's a test of faith my child"? Because if you would you deserve to have your child hate you forever.Peg's reply to me in msg 220: Oh - i agree totally. We accuse your God of the horrors recorded in the bible - and you don't understand the moral implications one little bit. Perhaps I need to shout in captitals at you as though you are a small child:THERE IS NO EXCUSE ON EARTH OR IN THE HEAVENS THAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH TO JUSTIFY THE ATTROCITIES IN THE BIBLE. THE DEATHS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED IN ANY WAY BY SANE RATIONAL MINDS - PERHAPS YOUR GOD IS INSANE!Mad, Bad or Sad - which one is he Peg for he is surely one of them...If I were God I would have no stupid fighting over my existance!