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Hi pandion, interesting post. You must have missed "JohnFulton" (aka aka reversespin, Bret, Charley, Craig, keys, the Golfer, Tom, Tim, whatever) and the amazing anchor stones and moon pools ... Message 203 and (filtered posts by him)
EvC Forum: Wyatt's Museum and the shape of Noah's ArkNoah'sArkStones

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Underwater view of ark carrying the large anchor stones.

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This is Wyatt's model of the ark (it's in his "museum") - I've seen a picture showing the stones hanging from the back end. Wan't to guess what they will do in a storm tossed sea?Entertaining to say the least.Enjoy.

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Hi again pandion,I'll second what Rahvin said in Message 15

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I'd focus more on your initial observation: that a boat of teh size described in Genesis would exceed the structural limitations of wood.

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Note that the size of waves are proportional to the reach of the winds as well as their strength. The "roaring 40's" are called that for a reason -- the reach there circles the globe. With a global flood this would be a universal condition. Wind and waves unimpeded as they circle the globe.The waves that broke up the boats in your OP were peanuts by comparison.Enjoy.

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Hi Rahvin, (and pandion) sorry to disagree. Actually the ratios are relevant. For one they do show the relative "boxiness" of the vessel/s compared to modern designed ocean going vessels. For two they affect the "hull girder" strength, with the vessel considered as a box beam.Wyoming - Wikipedia(schooner)

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General characteristics
Tonnage: 	3,730.54 gross register tons (GRT), 3036.21 NRT
Displacement: 	10,000 short tons (9,100 metric tons) approx.
Length: 	450 ft (140 m) overall
350 ft (110 m) on deck
329.5 ft (100.4 m) between perpendiculars
Beam: 	        50.1 ft (15.3 m)
Draught: 	30.4 ft (9.3 m)
Depth of hold: 	33 ft (10 m)
Propulsion: 	Sail
Sail plan: 	six-masted schooner
Speed: 	        16 knots (30 km/h/18 mph)
Complement: 	13-14

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Note: copyright picture here:
Six-mast schooner WYOMING, off mouth of Kennebec River, 1909 - Maine Memory Network
From the Maine Maritime Museum (been there)There was no superstructure on this vessel and the height of the cargo hold would be from the top of the keel to the underside of the deck beams. To be generous we can assume that the height from keel to deck was ~40 ft max.This results in LOA/maxB of 450/50 = 9:1 and LOA/maxD of 450/40 = 11.25. An L/B over 8:1 is considered lean, and is usually used to decrease drag (Catamaran and kayak hulls are ~12:1), although this can result in strength problems in large vessels (like the Wyoming)For comparison the Mayflower was fat:

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Details of the ship's dimensions are unknown; but estimates based on its load weight and the typical size of 180-ton merchant ships of its day suggest an estimated length of 90—110 feet (27.4—33.5 m) and a width of about 25 feet (7.6 m).[6]

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That's a L/B of ~100/24 or 4:1, and a LOT of european sailing vessels were similarly boxy. There is a reason for this, and the reason is the strength of the hull.A vessel like this is a box beam, and the strength of a beam is a function of the stressed axis cubed times the non-stressed axis. I-beams and cored laminate constructions take advantage of this to provide high strength to weight rations.Wide makes the boat stiffer against side to side bending -- and you will note that Wyoming was known for snaking while underway, bending side to side, and this is due to the high L/B ratio.Changing the L/B ratio from 9 to 6 and the L/D from 11.25 to 10 would mean (roughly) an increase of (11.25•9^{^3})/(10•6^{^3}) or 3.80 times as strong in the transverse direction: stiffer against snaking -- for the same length vessel.Tall makes the boat stiffer against up and down bending -- and you will note that Wyoming was also known for hogging and sagging while underway, and this is due to a high L/D ratio.Changing the L/D from 11.25 to 10 and the L/B ratio from 9 to 6would mean (roughly) an increase of (9•11.25^{^3})/(6•10^{^3}) or 2.14 times as strong in the vertical direction: stiffer against hogging\sagging -- for the same length vessel.The next issue is how much you need to scale the strength up for size: the strength of a beam necessary to carry the same stress (ie the strength of the material) in the extreme fibers is a function of length cubed.Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

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From the same period the early Church Father Origen (c. 182—251), responding to a critic who doubted that the Ark could contain all the animals in the world, countered with a learned argument about cubits, holding that Moses, the traditional author of the book of Genesis, had been brought up in Egypt and would therefore have used the larger Egyptian cubit. He also fixed the shape of the Ark as a truncated pyramid, square at its base, and tapering to a square peak one cubit on a side; it was not until the 12th century that it came to be thought of as a rectangular box with a sloping roof.[15]

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Abdallah ibn 'Umar al-Baidawi, writing in the 13th century, gives the length of the Ark as 300 cubits (157 m, 515 ft) by 50 (26.2 m, 86 ft) in width, 30 (15.7 m, 52 ft) in height, ...

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Doesn't seem to be much agreement on the size or shape, but we can go with Peg's numbers:The bending stress of a beam is related to (1/L)^{^3}, so if you double the length of a beam you need 8 times the strength to have the same bending stress (measured in the extreme fibers, the places where failure starts), which is set by the material limits (usually with a factor of safety to reduce design stress levels below the failure level).So we compare (L_ark/L_wyoming)^{^3} = (515/450)^{^3} = 1.499 ... so it needs 1.5 x the Wyoming for the same stress, and it has 2.14 in the vertical direction, so OVERALL the would actually be stiffer by ~42%.This, of course, is just theoretical - the Wyoming had steel cross beams and other structures to increase the strength of the hull girder, while the ark was constructed entirely of wood -- but the boxier shape does make the vessel stiffer. Curiously wood has a high strength and stiffness to weight ration compared to many metals and composites except only the most exotic composites. The problem is more in the fastening than in the strength of the material per se: without a glue as strong as the material you have the old problem of the weakest link in a chain.In Traditional wooden ship building this weakest link is the bonding of the wood members, one to the next, not just in the sealing of the outer skin, but in fastening the internal structural members so that they don't "work" and result in give (eg - a peg in a loose hole) before taking up load. So it's the fasteners between the wood members that makes wooden boats flex, not the relative stiffness of wood itself.Enjoy.

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Hi Peg, Curiously horizontal decks don't contribute to vertical stiffness. We don't really know the internal structure of either vessel, so a real comparison cannot be made. A single vent is not ventilation. Heavy gas sinks (CO₂, methane, etc) are heavier that oxygen and fill a space from the bottom up. The air needs to be moved to be ventilation, usually with a dedicated in and out flow path. Message 20
Curiously the buoyancy of the wood is irrelevant to the buoyancy of the vessel, which is why we can build boats of steel and concrete.Resins can make wood denser and more brittle. There is a wood called "ironwood" because it sinks. It is full of resins. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, or wooden vessels would still be using this simple system. When a seam works the tar seal is broken if the tar is stiff, and if the tar is flexible then the water pressure at the bottom forces it out of the seam. You're welcome.Enjoy.

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Thanks pandion, This is how it works out on the spreadsheet (this is done a little more rigourously than the previous calculation, and is more accurate as a ballpark estimate for comparisons. Note that done properly each would be modeled as a shell rather than a block, however we have no information on the skin thickness of either vessel.

	L	B	D
Ark	515	86	52
L/	1	6	10
BD^3	(vertical)	-	12092288
DB^3	(horizontal)	33074912	-
Wyoming	350	50	40
L/	1	7	8.75
BD^3	(vertical)	-	3200000
DB^3	(horizontal)	5000000	-
Ark/Wyoming
BD^3	(vertical)	-	3.78
DB^3	(horizontal)	6.61	-
(L/L)^3	3.19	208%	119%

The ark is still 20% stiffer in the worst (vertical loading) condition. Agreed, the problem is making sure you have enough area in the dowels to transfer the loads.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : transposed numbers

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Hi Peg,Reference in the previous post, where the cubit was converted by the egyptian cubit - wiki provided the conversion.Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

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From the same period the early Church Father Origen (c. 182—251), responding to a critic who doubted that the Ark could contain all the animals in the world, countered with a learned argument about cubits, holding that Moses, the traditional author of the book of Genesis, had been brought up in Egypt and would therefore have used the larger Egyptian cubit...

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Abdallah ibn 'Umar al-Baidawi, writing in the 13th century, gives the length of the Ark as 300 cubits (157 m, 515 ft) by 50 (26.2 m, 86 ft) in width, 30 (15.7 m, 52 ft) in height, ...

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Again strict comparison of strength is not really possible as it should be based on the of the skin of the vessel interpolated over it's length, both vertically and horizontally, and then compared to sagging load (when bow and stern are lifted by waves) and hogging load (when midship is lifted by waves). Message 84
Nope: then it would have folded up like an accordion.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : addedEdited by RAZD, : =

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Hi iano, The material a boat is constructed from has absolutely no effect on whether the boat will float or not.The key term is displacement: a boat will ride at the elevation where the weight of the water displaced by the boat is equal to the weight of the boat and contents.If you treat the ark as a leaky raft, with the only displacement coming from the wood timbers and not from the shape of the hull, then you have significantly less displacement.Enjoy.

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Hi Iano, I've been better, and I've been worse. Thanks. Displacement is displacement. Whatever floats your boat, the gross weight of your boat and contents equals the weight of water displaced or the boat sinks. Balsa wood has excellent tensile strength along the fibers, but splits along fibers easily, and it has very little compressive strength, and would crush under load, whether load is from other parts of vessel (fasteners, beams, etc) or cargo. Ah well, if you are going to move off into ad hoc ideas rather than keep it to what we know (which, granted, is small), then have fun.Currach - Wikipedia
Brendan - WikipediaExcept the hull was not covered with hides ...Enjoy

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Hi DrJones, It is common with large rafts to see waves pass down their length, as the average position of the floating members is at the average height of the waves over it's length.The main point is that we have no idea how the ark was actually constructed, and you could easily have a large square raft with enough thickness to support the loads, then enclosed decks over that to contain the animals and humans. This would solve the waste issue, but means that the cargo volume is severely reduced to fit inside the envelope ... which is all we have information on ....Enjoy.

Hi again iano, Understood, but this means that fasteners need to be twice as extensive, not impossible, but again taking room from the inside of the envelope. Actually no. In fiberglass construction biaxial cloth, where the fibers run in two different layers at 90% that are stitched together with a binder until glassed, is stronger than woven cloth in the final layup for the same weight of glass and resin. Except that you are making stuff up, and will continue to do so in order to maintain a "gosh it's possible" opinion. It's ad hoc and confirmation bias in full glory.A more scientific approach would be to first determine what technology was available, and then see how that could be applied to the problem.There are reed boats in the Med, there are planked boats, and there are rafts. I am not aware of any woven boats in that neck of the world.Enjoy.

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Hi ICANT, I have a simple problem here: So you are saying that he built a state-of-the-art cold-molded (as opposed to plywood making) wooden boat ...... that needed to be caulked with tar inside and out to keep water out of the lack of leaks?Fantasy is fun, but the reality is that the ship building technology then was not that advanced, as shown by the evidence of all the wrecks of ships that have been built and the absolute absence of any mythological story of such wood forming technology.The Pyramid of Khufu at Giza in Egypt, Khufu's Boats and Boat Pits

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When one of the slabs was raised from the eastern pit, the planking of the great boat was seen, completely The assembly work on Khufu's boat dismantled, but arranged in the semblance of its finished form.

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The cedar boat now on display was originally dismantled into 1,224 individual parts. On top of the wood was a layer of mats and ropes, an instrument made of flint, and some small pieces of white plaster. The prow of the boat, a wooden column topped by a round wooden disk, was found at the western end of the pit. This column was connected to two long wooden pieces that extended along the bottom of the pit. Most of the wooden parts had been tied together with ropes. Also found inside the pit were many other items, such as twelve oars, each mad from a single piece of wood, fifty-eight poles, three cylindrical columns and five doors. In total, there were thirteen Another view of Khufu's boat being reconstructedlayers of materials consisting of 651 artifacts ranging in size from 10 centimeters to 23 meters.

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The boat was removed, piece by piece, under the supervision of Ahmed Youssef Mustafa, the master restorer who worked on Hetephere's funerary furniture. It is 43.3 meters (142 feet) long and made of Lebanese cedar wood and some acacia. Its displacement was 45 tons. The maximum draft is 1.48 meters (5 feet). It is 5.9 meters wide. The separate parts of the boat had numerous U-shaped holes so that the boat could be 'stitched' together using ropes made of vegetable fibers. Interestingly many of the boats planks were marked with signs for prow, stern, port and starboard. Nevertheless it took Mustafa some ten years to completely reassemble the boat. That work was not completed until 1968.

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Egypt: Barques, Barges, and Byblos Boats

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The ancient Egyptians once again reached out of the past to awe the world with another of their buried secrets - the Abydos ships. In 1991 in the desert near the temple of Khentyamentiu, archaeologists uncovered the remains of 14 ships dating back to the early Barques, Barges, and Byblos Boatsfirst dynasty (2950-2775 BC), possibly associated with King Aha, the first ruler of that dynasty. These 75 foot long ships are buried side by side and have wooden hulls, rough stone boulders which were used as anchors, and "sewn" wooden planks. Also found within their desert graves were remains of the woven straps that joined the planks, as well as reed bundles that were used to seal seams between planks. The Abydos ships have the honor of being the world’s oldest planked boats.

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No one knows exactly when the first ship was built, but we do know that the ancient Egyptians were creating ships with technological skills far beyond their time, well before the invention of the wheel.

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That would appear to be the height of boat building technology circa 3000 BCE. No woven hulls of balsa wood, no laminated parts, but bits and pieces tied together.Enjoy.

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Hi iano, It does affect the stability, as any increase in the height of the center of gravity increases the chances of it being flipped. Message 179
Actually, I would agree that a "covered life raft" is a better mental image than a boat for this story to work, and it is less constrained by the dimensional issues so it can fill out the full 500x50x30 cubit volume in a boxy way rather than "shipshape".A large flat wide raft is more stable than a shipshape ark, but the superstructure jeopardizes that, with a raised center of gravity (to say nothing of the cargo on the decks on top of the raft). Message 181
A raft can also be tied together, so construction does not challenge them to use high technology in fastening and bonding systems.The next question is to see if this is really feasible in terms of the size.The use of bindings would mean that the structure is flexible, which could be fine for just a raft, but when you add decks you are now generating forces that tend to tear things apart every time it goes over a wave. We are back to the OP:

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It is said that she could be seen to snake (movement of the bow and stern from side to side in relation to mid ship) and hog (movement of the bow and stern up and down in relation to mid ship) while underway. The action of the waves, in even calm seas, caused the planking to be sprung beyond the capabilities of any caulking that could be devised.

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Any thoughts on how you keep the superstructure together?Enjoy.

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Hi greentwiga, I did. I also googled "iraqi marsh arab reed mosques" and found this site:http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/posters/c58336_p10.html
with these photos:

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Reed Houses, Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Reed Houses and Boat, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Mudhif (Meeting House), Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Suk-Esh-Shiukh Village, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Marsh Arab Village, Iraq, Middle East

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What I do NOT see in any of this, is whether these structures are built on islands, floating or just resting on the bottom. Marsh is not ocean, it has bottom relatively close to the surface, so it is possible to pile stuff up without it having to float.Several of those pictures look like there is dirt around the structuresBuilding reed houses on land does not make an ark. There is a joke about a king that put his stone throne in his attic, and it fell through the floor killing him ... the moral is that people that live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones ....None of these structures show a second floor.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : ...Edited by RAZD, : end

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Hi dennis780,quotes are easytype [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes: or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

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quotes are easy

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If you think you are the first creationist to blurt this out, you are sadly mistaken. The problem is not that there is evidence of various bits of land being underwater at some time in the past but that:

• there is no consistent age for all such deposits
• there are layers of underwater ecology deposition that sandwich layers of land ecology deposition
• ALL sedimentary layers showing underwater ecology deposition show that the life involved lived there for decades (if not thousands of years), not just a couple hundred days - much too old to have occurred during a short term flood.
• geology explains these multiple long lived deposits, a flood does not.

See Seashells on tops of mountains. or we can ask for Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? to be reopened. Another underinformed polonium aficionado ... and unfortunately (for you) this information you have is invalid: polonium is a product of uranium decay, and the immediate predecessor in the decay chain is radon gas, which can, does, and has permeated the various rocks (not granite btw) where these halos are found. In every case where polonium halos are found you will also find uranium halos, evidence of a very old earth.See polonium halos (particularly Message 265 and the posts leading up to it), and Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?. Why not? Perhaps the authors were demented enough to think gullible people will fall for it more readily if they put in some numbers that sound big. Or just another bogus claim that is unsubstantiated by real evidence.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : dayzEdited by RAZD, : affective

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Hi greentwiga, Reed buildings do not mean that the islands are floating. Several of the pictures look like there is dirt around and inside the structures, and that does not match with your assertion that ... How do the doors and windows magically raise up with the new floor?These could be floating, maybe:

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Reed Houses and Boat, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Marsh Arab Village, Iraq, Middle East

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As they are surrounded by reads and water and not much else,These are highly unlikely to be floating:

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Suk-Esh-Shiukh Village, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East Mudhif (Meeting House), Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East

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Because it looks like dirt and there are non-swamp trees growing around these structures.Enjoy.

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