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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 121 of 453 (520761)
08-23-2009 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by iano
08-23-2009 4:37 PM


Overview
iano writes:

Is that average or local conditions? I'd imagine that amount of water falling uniformly to have a dampening effect on the ocean - if anything.

Do you mean the same source of water that scoured the entire crust of the earth such that there are no sedimentary rocks older than 4500 years was also so peaceful that a balsa wood woven boat would float in it for a year?

I guess with some people's god all things are indeed possible. The real question is if the model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor and heals the sick. So far, religious fanaticism against commonly perceived reality has a batting average on these issues that approximates zero, even by it's own standards. Instead we get suicide bombers, doctor murderers, and those who seek to destroy education, burn books and movies, and replace such with absolute authoritarianism, usually for the 'great leader' who supposedly is the intermediary between the deity and the laity.

But then again, a mechanical, or electrical, or rarely even civil engineer, if they refused to learn anything after graduation outside of one book, or through such pamphlets that are inherently dishonest about both religion and reality, would have no clue as to the scientific consensus concerning how oil, natural gas, and minerals are discovered and used to the benefit of the people, be they 'christian' or 'heathen.' Yet engineering is dependent upon the experimentally, and might I add hugely validated, findings of physics, chemistry, geology, and biology.

I guess I should add here that such discoveries are based (and discovered a gargantuan amount of evidence) upon a 13 billion year old universe, a 4.5 billion year old earth, along with a 3.9 billion year old life history rather than a 6000 year old earth, a 4500 year old massive yet utterly non-evidenced genetic bottleneck, and a boat that can't float. One model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor, and heals the sick and the other does not.

Here we are, arguing over if some proposed absurdly over sized for its structure and absurdly under sized for its purpose boat will float when according to Christianity we should be helping those less fortunate.

I think I need to do a good deed tomorrow, if not several. Wonder if anyone who wastes their time and soul defending the intentional misreading of such a clear and blatant parable would feel likewise.

Or is the parable misread as a newspaper account more important than the (to some of us) obvious central message?

Edited by anglagard, : paragraph - i guess i should add here

Edited by anglagard, : change singular to plural as in feed to feeds

Edited by anglagard, : add parentheses concerning discovery of deep time so we don't waste a few more posts


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 08-23-2009 4:37 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 08-24-2009 6:23 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 125 of 453 (520779)
08-24-2009 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Coyote
08-23-2009 11:41 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Coyote writes:

Each has about the same relationship to reality; i.e., none.

I found your succinctness quite amusing as in:


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Coyote, posted 08-23-2009 11:41 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by bluescat48, posted 08-24-2009 12:20 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 143 of 453 (520924)
08-25-2009 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by pandion
08-25-2009 1:33 AM


Re: This is getting funny
pandion writes:

So far, the creationist response has been varied and silly.

Yes, whenever I get upset over what appears to be intentional deception, I have to remember the comedic value.

A few years ago, Iano posited some elaborate wooden pump mechanism for the bilge and the sewage that somehow could be operated by the limited crew of this purported ark. Talk about some serious excuses, conjured up images of some of the more accomplished stand up comics. It just amazes me how such hilarious apologetics are so much more important to fundamentalists than any ignored sermon on any mount.

But that is expected when one prefers the message of Paul over that of Jesus due to personal convenience.

Could one imagine mucking all those dino turds? Not to mention having to adjust all those saddles every day so they don't get bedsores.

That boat just don't float.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by pandion, posted 08-25-2009 1:33 AM pandion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:20 AM anglagard has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 146 of 453 (520928)
08-25-2009 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:30 AM


Re: Anything Goes
Peg writes:

we do know what gopher wood is

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood

Care to take a shot at providing an identification of this 'gopher wood' either currently living or in the fossil record?


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:59 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 152 of 453 (520935)
08-25-2009 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-25-2009 3:46 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

They don't ? Julius Caesar claimed descent from the goddess Venus via the Trojan prince Aeneas. I'd call Venus mythical and Julius Caesar real. Wouldn't you ?

My wife and daughter are direct descendants of the Norse God of fertility, weather, and agriculture, Freyr. this is according to the fact they can trace their genealogy back to Robert of Normandy, half brother of William the Conqueror, according to the Mormons. Well it does not take much to get to his direct ancestor, Rollo, who according to the ancient sources, was directly descended from Freyr through several generations.

So there you have it. My wife and daughter are direct descendants of a Norse god.

As for me, my ancestors came from the Ozarks and almost all had the first name of William. Therefore my ancestors are likely the original hillbillies.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 3:46 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 9:40 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 155 of 453 (520938)
08-25-2009 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
08-25-2009 4:35 AM


Logic or Emotion?
peg writes:

evidence matters

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race

perhaps they also are figment of our imaginations lol

I think someone slept through that logic class, be it either under the math or philosophy departments.

Edited by anglagard, : title


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 4:35 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 161 of 453 (520945)
08-25-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Peg
08-25-2009 5:13 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
peg writes:

it would not be logical for anyone's genealogy to include a mythical person

Perhaps not, yet we have an immaculate conception. Also I believe it is important to point out that some Norman, yet converted royalty evidently considered it important enough to preserve a genealogy linked to 'heathen' deities.

I suppose one could call this the Christmas Tree effect.

For another thing, was it uncommon? Not in my research in history. Virtually every ancient emperor claimed divine descent regardless of place be it Rome, Persia, China, Japan, or Mexico, among others. It goes with the territory.

And then we have Jesus. God was his dad but he is god so he is his own father. I think they could have blamed earthquakes on Socrates, considering all that rolling in his grave.

All these claims of divinity are a messy business, especially when mortal posters here claim to be the sole spokesperson for god.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:13 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 6:41 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 163 of 453 (520949)
08-25-2009 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
08-25-2009 6:20 AM


Re: This is getting funny
iano writes:

Your ability to recognise tongue-in-cheek falls short of your ability to remember. The point then (as now) is to suggest that which is feasible given the kinds of materials and tooling around at the time. Not because I think that's how it was necessarily done but to illustrate the poverty of the objection at times - your own off-topic ramblings being a case in point in this thread.

There are good grounds for objecting to a planked ark on the grounds of watertightness. What are your engineering objections to a (far simpler) floating platform which doesn't rely on watertightness for buoyancy because..

I am quite familiar with your ability to brag about any supposed superiority to all others, along with a singular inability to admit anything short of personal infallibility. I remember that Russia border thing where you insisted that Uzbekistan was part of Russia and then because of the infallibility thing insisted upon some ridiculous difference between Russia and Russian. So what is the definition of 'is?' slick willie?

Yeah, I went off on you and off topic. Should have known better than to even associate with you at all.

I will never be a part of your mantra that GOD is all about fear and hate.

If you want to take me out mr. false pride, create a topic we can truly engage in. Yeah this balsa wood woven basket survived the scouring of the crust of the earth, yeah all genetics is a lie, yeah all geology is a lie, yeah all radioactivity is a lie, yeah, yeah yeah. What bullshit.

Other than that, I sincerely hope we never cross paths again, my mistake.

Edited by anglagard, : Some additions for clarity.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:20 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 8:11 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2208
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 227 of 453 (521875)
08-30-2009 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by greentwiga
08-30-2009 2:10 AM


Make Much Sense?
greentwiga writes:

A couple of points. If the only animals on the ark were the wild animals found in the marshes of southern Sumer, the area flooded, and only the domestic animals that were adapted to the intense heat of Sumer, then there were not too many animals on the Ark.

If there were no significant predators in the region, other than cats, and other small carnivores, then meat for the carnivores would not be a problem.

OK, so far so good, there Gilgamesh.

Reed boats, like the Tigris made by Heyerdahl, remained seaworthy after months continuously in the seawater. They did not use the tar and pitch that the ancients used, which may have increased the length of time. We do know that chips of tar that we found from these ancient boats had significant sized barnacles on them, showing that they spent much more than a few weeks in the water.

Reed boats are solid crafts, not hollow like wooden boats. waves washing over the boat just flows down through the reeds. It is impossible for the boats to sink. They can break apart or run aground, but they can't sink. The Hogging and other bending movements that cause wooden boats to sink are not a problem with reed boats.

Too bad the designers of other 'unsinkable' boats, like the Titanic or Bismark did not know this. Just think, if only the Titanic had been built of reeds, it would have flexed when it hit that iceberg, regardless of how cold or stiff the reeds may have been. If only the Bismark had been built of reeds, it would have survived all those fatal shells from the Prince George, as it would just flex around them. Then they could have retaliated with their reed guns!

Somehow common sense makes me think reed boats are not as suitable for long distance ocean travel as wooden, or now steel, hulled ones are. If so, why aren't cruise ships, cargo ships, and {heaven forbid!} oil tankers made of reeds?

We have thousands of years of continuous boat building experience. What you say about wooden boats is true. We have lost most of the scientific knowledge of Reed boat building. The ancients had at least a thousand years to make many errors and learn improvements. We have only made 10 to 20 reed boats, and do not know all of their secrets. Did they solve all the problems you mentioned. When I said "I don't know." I meant that we have no scientific evidence if reed boats can overcome those problems.

{emphasis mine}

Name one ancient technology that has not been replicated in modern times. Sure, Europe went stupid under fundamentalism and forgot how to make concrete, but that does not mean the world went stupid along with Europe. They had their own time for their own fundamentalism to get stupid over. When considering individuals and groups instead of nations, it even happens to this day, all around the world (with some exceptions).

Yes, some verses seem to be better interpreted as a whole world flood. Other verses seem to be better interpreted as meaning a regional flood. When you examine the original Hebrew in detail, either interpretation can be supported. When two interpretations seem equally valid, I prefer the one that fits known science much better.

IMO, I like the speculations made at the beginning and end of your post a lot better than the ones in the middle.

Edited by anglagard, : Add {emphasis mine}


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by greentwiga, posted 08-30-2009 2:10 AM greentwiga has not yet responded

  
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