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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 453 (520227)
08-20-2009 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by pandion
08-19-2009 2:14 PM


Re-storm
Hi pandion,

pandion writes:

Another consideration is what would have happened to a big, wooden box in a stormy sea.

Who said anything about storms, typhoons, or the like.

pandion writes:

So how would Noah's big wooden box have fared? With no means of propulsion the ark would have been turned broadside to the first few small waves. If the 40 day storm was as severe as creationists tell us,

Ah you been listening to too many YEC fairy tales.

According to Genesis 1:9 the earth would have looked like my avatar but the land mass could have been much smaller.

Genesis tells us it began to rain and the fountains of the deep opened up. If that happened all around the planet the water would have rose like it does at the Bay of Fundy.

Depending on the sea level of that land mass would determine how much water was necessary to flood it.

So without all the earthquakes and everything put forth by the YEC's to produce their impossible dream the water would have rose like water in a tub filling from the bottom.

Remember this was God's project and I think it was a much easier task that creating the universe. So why would he have problems with such a small thing as flooding the earth and keeping humans, and animals alive on an ark for a year?

But then I will assume that I am talking to someone who does not believe God exists. Therefore would have no comprehension of what He can or can not do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pandion, posted 08-19-2009 2:14 PM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Admin, posted 08-20-2009 7:19 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 13 by pandion, posted 08-20-2009 10:41 AM ICANT has not yet responded
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 130 of 453 (520843)
08-24-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by pandion
08-21-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi pandion,

pandion writes:

what you are ignoring) is that 300 ft. is the structural limit of shipbuilding of all wood construction.

You have stated this information more than once but I can not find any reference to any information that makes such a statement. Did I miss it?

The ark is not a ship. It wasn't going anywhere. Its function was to float and keep the occupants alive.

I know they just completed a 9 story 30 meter apartment building in London this year. It is all wood construction. Source

So big things can be built out of wood.

There are huge 1300 year old wood buildings standing today.

The ark:

Was to be built of Gopher wood. Most scholars think that was cypress. Cypress trees get to be very large. There is one standing on my uncles land that is over 200 feet tall.

It Was to have a lower floor a second lower floor and a third lower floor and then there would have been the bottom, all below the main floor.

Assuming 10' including flooring for each floor the main floor would have been 40' from the bottom. The roof would have been at 52' from the bottom.

The ark would have been a rectangle 517' long 86' wide and 52' high.

With the door at 40' from the bottom the draft could have been 39' leaving 13' above water.

There was to be rooms on all floors. This would have made the ark construction very similar to the building in London.

The rooms could have been any size as none is given. Which would have provided all the vertical, horizontal and linear bracing need to keep the ark from collapsing from external pressure.

I have built boats using cypress lumber and if the lumber is dry you have to space the boards at least 1/4" apart or when they get wet they will buckle.

When properly built, once the boards have received water and swell they will not leak as long as the boards stay in the water.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by pandion, posted 08-21-2009 10:58 AM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-24-2009 1:07 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:50 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 134 by pandion, posted 08-24-2009 1:56 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 2:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 132 of 453 (520851)
08-24-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Capt Stormfield
08-24-2009 1:07 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi Capt,

Capt Stormfield writes:

Yes, but both buildings and boats have structural limits. For all materials, not just wood. The limits for wooden boats, even when reinforced with other materials, are known. The dimensions of the ark exceed those limits. Period.

Well the ark was no boat.

It was not built like a boat.

It was built like a building with rooms in it.

Someone pointed to a paper that said it was structurally sound to take 30 meter waves. That is right at 100 feet.

But I was just pointing out facts about the ark that were not being discussed or considered.

I still would like to know who determined the structural limit that a wood ark would be 300 feet long.

It wasn't the manufacture of the wood.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-24-2009 1:07 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-24-2009 2:50 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 137 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 08-24-2009 9:08 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 139 of 453 (520906)
08-24-2009 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 1:50 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

Do you have any idea what CLT(cross laminated timber) is?

I hope I do as much as I have used over the years. I am a contractor.

This is a system where you apply thin sheets of material with the grain going across each other every other layer. If you want to make it stronger you add layers at a 45° angle from both sides between the vertical and horozontal layers the layers being glued, and or fastened with fasteners.

I have built 5' wide free standing circular stairs using this system.

If I remember correctly the panels they used in the apartments were 10'x40'x10".

Theodoric writes:

Now if you can show me that Noah had access to CLT I will give it to you. If not, then this is a really stupid example for you to use.

He had lumber.
He had glue.
He had fastners.

All he had to do was put a vertical layer on then glue and fasten a layer at a 45° angle left to right. Then apply a layer at 45° from right to left. Then apply a layer horzontal.

If he did not think that was strong enough he could have repeated the process. All the interior walls and floors could have been constructed in the same way. He only had 120 years to build the ark. I am sure there was plenty of people that would have gladly worked on this crazy mans project just to relieve him of the burden of his posessions.

Theodoric writes:

As for the 1300 year old wood building, which buildings re you referencing? Hopefully, not the Buddhist temple in Ikaruga, Japan.

I'm not sure if that is the one or not but there are several really old wood buildings. My point was that wood don't rot as fast as some here was insuating. One has a tree for its center pole that is over 200' tall. That would make a rather long board. We have some trees in California almost 400' tall. How tall was a tree of Gopherwood? We don't even know what gopherwood was, must less how tall they grew.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:50 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by RAZD, posted 08-24-2009 9:49 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 141 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 10:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 183 of 453 (521084)
08-25-2009 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by RAZD
08-24-2009 9:49 PM


Re: What archeology shows for boat building technology
Hi RAZD,

RAZD writes:

So you are saying that he built a state-of-the-art cold-molded (as opposed to plywood making) wooden boat ...

I don't know what he built.

Theodoric did not say he had to know how to construct the ark only that he had to have access to the materials that could do the job.

RAZD writes:

. that needed to be caulked with tar inside and out to keep water out of the lack of leaks?

I didn't notice where the pitch was to be applied to keep the water out.

If the ark was built out of cypress or a very similar wood that swells when put in water it would not leak unless the fastners came loose and the boards separated. If the fastners was cypress they would swell when wet and would have to dry out before coming loose.

I didn't know tar and pitch was the same thing.

I always thought pitch was what you get out of a pine tree when you cut a catface on it and put a container below the cut and caught what come out of the tree.

RAZD writes:

Fantasy is fun, but the reality is that the ship building technology then was not that advanced, as shown by the evidence of all the wrecks of ships that have been built and the absolute absence of any mythological story of such wood forming technology.

Fantasy, fiction, or truth.

If your stock material was 2" thick cypress constructed as I suggested using cypress pegs to join the layers together. All floors and wall partions constructed the same way with beams and floor joists. The rooms 10' x 10'

Would that boat float?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by RAZD, posted 08-24-2009 9:49 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 10:06 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 189 of 453 (521153)
08-26-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Theodoric
08-25-2009 10:06 PM


Re: What archeology shows for boat building technology
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

Amazing!!! You will use anything to "win" and argument won't you. Building the Ark is kind of the desired out come isn't it? By the way you never responded to my question of how he would have glued the CLT.

You haven't learned yet that no one wins an argument on EvC.

However In Re: Limits of Wood (Message 133) you said:

Theodoric writes:

Now if you can show me that Noah had access to CLT I will give it to you. If not, then this is a really stupid example for you to use.

Nothing about the ability or knowledge to use the material just access.

Theodoric writes:

Do you completely ignore the points made about boats over 300', or do you feel they do not pertain to god's big boats?

Just like you keep ignoring the fact the ark was not a boat.

Just like everyone ignore's the fact all land mass was in one place in Genesis when the flood took place. Which would reduce the amount of water necessary to cover it.

BTW the message you are responding to stated what was used between layers.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 10:06 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2009 9:20 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 194 by lyx2no, posted 08-26-2009 10:03 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 191 of 453 (521157)
08-26-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Coyote
08-26-2009 9:20 AM


Re: What archeology shows for boat building technology
Hi Coyote,

Coyote writes:

Two questions:

I am affraid if I chase that rabbit the boss will get upset.

I have discussed it in religious threads.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2009 9:20 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 9:55 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 442 of 453 (671451)
08-25-2012 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:54 PM


Ark
Hi Jzyehoshua,
Jzyehoshua writes:

But really, there's not really any way to tell for sure what the Ark's shape was exactly, at least, not that I know of anyway.

Sure there is, all you have to do is read the blueprint.

quote:
Genesis 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.


The ark was to be 550' long, 91' wide and 55' high. That means that it would be the shape of a rectangler box.

It would have a main deck that would be 44' from the exterior bottom, and that is where the door would be placed.

That means the ark could have a 40' draft more or less leaving 15' above the water.

You would have 3 floors below the main deck plus the bottom. Thus you would have 5 floors of 50,050 sq ft with a total of 250,250 sq ft.
The ark would contain 2,752,750 cubit feet.

Rooms was to have been built on all these floors which would have provided all verticle and horizontal bracing needed to keep the ark together, from the exterior pressure.

Over 18 acres of storage space can be put in the ark. I have been waiting for over 2 years for someone to give me a list of creatures needed to accomplish replenishing the earth with none forthcoming.

Recently a 6 story wood frame building withstood a 7.5 earthquake with little damage. The footprint was much smaller than that of the ark.

The world's largest wood frame building is the nine-story, 30-meter-tall Stadthaus tower in London.

The ark was not a boat and that ark would float.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 8:54 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by ringo, posted 08-25-2012 12:47 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 444 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2012 1:22 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 445 of 453 (671465)
08-25-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by ringo
08-25-2012 12:47 PM


Re: Ark
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Or it could have been an ellipsoid, like a submarine, which would make more sense.

Show me anywhere in the blueprint that that there would be one place that the ark would not be 300 cubits long.

Show me anywhere in the blueprint that there would be any place where the ark would not be 50 cubits wide.

Show me anywhere in the bluepring that there would be any place where the ark would not be 30 cubits high.

quote:
Genesis 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.


ringo writes:

If that building could float, it would be relevant to the topic.

The wood structure withstood the pressure of a 7.5 earthquake. That is a lot of stress for a wood building.

The ark had to withstand a lot of stress according to what YEC'S and most here believe the flood produced. Problem is there is no evidence for any of the wild claims made concerning the flood.

ringo writes:

Actually, the ark's large footprint is the problem, not the solution. It's so long that it would "hang" between wave crests, flex and eventually break - if it didn't leak itself to death first.

How tall are these waves you are talking about and what caused them?

There are ocean going barges 459 feet long today traversing the oceans and surviving.

You probably never had a boat built out of cypress wood. If you build it out of dry wood you have to leave 1/4 inch cracks between the boards because when it gets wet it swells and will buckle it they are placed too close together.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by ringo, posted 08-25-2012 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Coragyps, posted 08-25-2012 4:48 PM ICANT has not yet responded
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 447 of 453 (671467)
08-25-2012 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by crashfrog
08-25-2012 1:22 PM


Re: Ark
Hi crash,

crashfrog writes:

Well, no, it doesn't. I could certainly measure and record your height, width, and depth front-to-back but that would not indicate that your body was in the shape of a rectangular box, now would it?

Specifying dimensions and specifying shape are two completely different things.

There was no place the ark was not 300 cubits long, no place it was not 50 cubits wide and no place it was not 30 cubits high.

Show me one place where the blueprint changed the dimensions.

If there was no place I was not 5' 9" high, no place I was not 19" wide and no place I was not 13" thick I would be the shape of a rectangular box.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2012 1:22 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2012 5:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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