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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 453 (520313)
08-20-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-19-2009 8:35 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
RAZD writes:

This is Wyatt's model of the ark (it's in his "museum") - I've seen a picture showing the stones hanging from the back end. Wan't to guess what they will do in a storm tossed sea?

Entertaining to say the least.

that is entertaining! lol

i've seen that shape in other drawings of the ark and have always wondered why they give it that particular shape when the bible description of its dimensions is nothing like it.


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 453 (520315)
08-20-2009 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pandion
08-19-2009 12:34 AM


the only problem here is that you are assuming the Ark was built in the same way as a conventional ship.

The measurments of the ark do not show a vessel that is anything like the ships we know.

The measurments are 300 long, 50 wide, and 30 high. Rule up those measurements and you've got a rectangular box with a lenght to depth ratio of 10 to 1 and a length to width ratio of 6 to 1.

It was flat and square. It didnt need a rounded bottom or sharp bow to cut through the water; it required no steering; its only functions were to be watertight and to stay afloat.

What helped it to stay afloat was that it was made out of a resinous tree. This resinous wood is thought by some to be cypress or a similar tree and in that part of the world there was an abundant supply of resinous trees.
The Phoenicians and Alexander the Great used the same type of wood in their ships because it is especially resistant to water and decay. Moses also was told to “cover [the ark] inside and outside with tar.”
So it would have been completely waterproof, no 'pumping' would have been required.

Actually, you'd be more familiar with pitching then me, the ark would have needed to be strong enough to resist the tendency to sag under the stress of being lifted by the waves.
The accounts show that the length-to-depth ratio was 10 to 1. Isnt this similar to the ratio modern ship builders use to accommodate such stresses?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pandion, posted 08-19-2009 12:34 AM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rahvin, posted 08-20-2009 7:17 PM Peg has not yet responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 453 (520337)
08-20-2009 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by pandion
08-20-2009 8:11 PM


pandion writes:

Can you imagine the lethal atmosphere inside a big box without ventilation that was covered all over the inside with tar?

it was ventilated according to the account

Noah was told to make an opening at the top of the width of a cubit all around Ge 6:16. this wasnt just a small peephole, if the opening was a cubit in height near the roof and extending right around the four sides, thats nearly 140 sq/m air vent.

I understand that the structural limits are exceeded at 300 ft in length, but again you are assuming that Noah made each piece of wood at this length or longer. We are not told how Noah fastened the timbers together or what length each of them were so its not a valid argument to claim that the length of the wood would have been a failure for the ark.

also the ark was constructed with three decks, which would have added to its strength

and thanks to RADZ for that ratio info!

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pandion, posted 08-20-2009 8:11 PM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by pandion, posted 08-21-2009 12:57 AM Peg has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 32 of 453 (520345)
08-21-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by pandion
08-21-2009 12:57 AM


pandion writes:

But that's not what Genesis says. It says, "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above." So there was a window on the top deck. So what? Please stop with the extra-Biblical inventions.

how its that an extra-biblical invention ???

you made the claim that there was no ventilation, i showed you otherwise. And genesis does not say 'window' it says 'tsohar' This is a hebrew word that means “opening for illumination.”

Gen 6:16 " You will make a tso′har [roof; or, window] for the ark, and you will complete it to the extent of a cubit upward, and the entrance of the ark you will put in its side; you will make it with a lower [story], a second [story] and a third [story].

This 'window' was an openening for light and air to come in.

pandion writes:

To ventilate the ark you would have to have an intake of fresh air and an outlet for noxious fumes and a fan (or some other means) to drive the air.

houses are built with air vents that are not propelled by a fan. If they are of no value, why continue to build houses with air vents?

pandion writes:

We are assuming that the ark exceeded 300 ft., to over 500 ft. in fact. It actually has nothing to do with the length of each plank but the structural strength of wood.

but i though you said that the structural limit stops at 300 ft. If thats the case, then several shorter lengths would not reach their structural limit. There is nothing to say that Noah used peices of over 300 ft. They could have been shorter pieces that were somehow connected together.

pandion writes:

It actually has nothing to do with the length of each plank but the structural strength of wood.

the structual strength is determined by the ratio as RAZD has shown in his above post.

pandion writes:

Really? Neither were we told anything about resinous wood, or a vent all around the ark. You just make it up as you go, don't you?

have you read the account or are you going off anti creation propaganda?

quote:
Genesis 6:13 "Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree. You will make compartments in the ark, and you must cover it inside and outside with tar. 15 And this is how you will make it: three hundred cubits the length of the ark, fifty cubits its width, and thirty cubits its height. 16 You will make a tso′har [roof; or, window] for the ark, and you will complete it to the extent of a cubit upward, and the entrance of the ark you will put in its side; you will make it with a lower [story], a second [story] and a third [story].

pandion writes:

The length of the ark exceeded the structural strength of wood by more than 1.5 times.

the length is one thing, but the width is what increases its ratio and in the case of the ark, it was 1-10. You need to calculate the width into it.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix "quote" type quote box.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pandion, posted 08-21-2009 12:57 AM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 08-21-2009 9:12 AM Peg has responded
 Message 42 by pandion, posted 08-21-2009 10:58 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 84 of 453 (520553)
08-22-2009 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Theodoric
08-21-2009 9:12 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
lets stick to pandions argument that the structual limits of wood is 300ft

the ark was a width of 50 cubits which translates to about 73 feet or 22 meters wide.

If noah laid the beams across the width of the boat rather then along the lenght, then the structural limits of the wood is nowhere near reached.


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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 453 (520554)
08-22-2009 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
08-21-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Ship Design 101
hi RAZD

i just want to ask what those figures for the ark are based on?

Genesis gives the measurements in cubits. 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high.
In ancient times, a cubit in isreal was 17.5 inches or 44.5 cm

so this would make the ark about 438 feet [134 m] long, 73 feet [22 m] wide, and 44 feet [13 m] deep

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2009 9:32 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 86 of 453 (520555)
08-22-2009 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by pandion
08-21-2009 10:58 AM


pandion writes:

Either it is or it isn't a window. Exactly what do you think a window is? And somewhere in you confusion about the window/opening for illumination you come up with ventilation.

i was showing you what the hebrew word meant...Some scholars think tso′har is related to light and so they translate it “window”

it doesnt mean it had glass in it. It was an opening, therefore it let in light and air.

pandion writes:

The real question is whether or not you have read it. Since you keep making up so much about the story that just isn't there, it would seem not. The "resinous tree" part is from a non-standard translation. No one knows what "gopher" wood was so it is a bit disingenuous to claim that "resinous tree"

Hebrew words are built from root words. The hebrew word used in the account, 'Gopher' belongs to a family that includes 'Pitch' (ko'pher) on the basis of this, many believe the tree to mean a resinious tree because the word Gopher is from the same root word meaning resin.

there is no making anything up...the hebrew words provide their own conclusion.


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 87 of 453 (520556)
08-22-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Huntard
08-21-2009 11:16 AM


Re: Uhm, Peg?
just trying to keep it consistent!

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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 122 of 453 (520763)
08-23-2009 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by DevilsAdvocate
08-22-2009 5:50 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
DevilsAdvocate writes:

Without a keel running the entire length, a large ship/boat cannot withstand the hydronamic forces and structural stresses placed on it and would literally break up.

that may be very true,

however we have no way of knowing how Noah reinforced the ark, there are no details of how he laid any of the beams...if there were explicit details, then we'd be able to ascertain if its was a sound structure.

we can assume he did it the way that would cause the boat to break up, or we can assume he must have reinforced it in a way that kept it secure.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:24 PM Peg has responded
 Message 124 by Coyote, posted 08-23-2009 11:41 PM Peg has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 144 of 453 (520925)
08-25-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by lyx2no
08-23-2009 10:24 PM


Re: Anything Goes
lyx2no writes:

We don't know what gopher wood is

we do know what gopher wood is

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood


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Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 3:45 AM Peg has responded
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 Message 172 by pandion, posted 08-25-2009 12:14 PM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 145 of 453 (520927)
08-25-2009 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Coyote
08-23-2009 11:41 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Coyote writes:

But since the entire story is myth in the first place

mythical people dont turn up in the genealogies of real people.


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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 148 of 453 (520930)
08-25-2009 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 2:10 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Theodoric writes:

The cross-laminated timber walls and floors are held together with steel angles and screws.

Hmm, kind of kills your whole argument there doesn't it.

Noah would have had access and knowledge of metal forging in his day, its possible that he used it in the arks construction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 2:10 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 149 of 453 (520932)
08-25-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-25-2009 3:46 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

They don't ? Julius Caesar claimed descent from the goddess Venus via the Trojan prince Aeneas. I'd call Venus mythical and Julius Caesar real. Wouldn't you ?

do you have his genealogy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 3:46 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:07 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 453 (520933)
08-25-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by anglagard
08-25-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Anything Goes
anglagard writes:

Care to take a shot at providing an identification of this 'gopher wood' either currently living or in the fossil record?

cypress

its available in abundance in the middle east


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 3:45 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3340 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 153 of 453 (520936)
08-25-2009 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by PaulK
08-25-2009 4:07 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

I can't find a full listing on line, but why would that matter ? Once you concede that people may claim descent form a mythical ancestor there is no bar to creating a genealogy including mythical ancestors.

evidence matters

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race

perhaps they also are figment of our imaginations lol


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Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:51 AM Peg has responded
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