`These heavy stones would tear a wooden ship apart in heavy sea state conditions. The amount of shearing forces involved would be enormous as the wood would be pulled in all magnitudes and directions.`
I for one agree with you. And I still believe in the flood. The fact is, this question cannot be answered using the Biblical text.
It is an interesting point, and I think until the ark is found, and unearthed (supposing it exsists), we will never truely understand how a completely wooden box could have withstood the flood.
I would suppose (I know, I`m going there) that if God did flood the earth (which there is more evidence for than an ark), then I would think he would make sure not to kill the last of the life He wanted to preserve. Remember, Noah built the ark (in theory) having faith in God, that God would save him and his family because Noah was good in Gods eyes, and walked with God. So scientifically speaking, you have us on this one. I do have a feeling though that the boat at the base of Mount Ararat will be completely x-rayed within the next few years, and if the dimensions match those of the bible, could give us a glimmer of clues into the structure, support, and other capabilities of the ark.
"All for a theory that offers no more likelihood of accounting for all-the-worlds-animals-on-a-single-boat than a wooden ark. All a bit pointless really."
Although I am not much of a boat expert, I am a logical man. And since you seem to proclaim to internet readers alike that believing in a boat made of wood carried every living thing on earth in it is more plausible than every thing on earth coming from a singularity that has never been found or discovered, and is supposedly made of nothing, that exploded and gave us light elements such as helium and hydrogen ONLY, that over billions of years formed clouds that collapsed down on themselves to form planets and stars (without any outside energy), that in turn incomplete chemicals travelled from the surface of earth to the vents of the ocean floor to create organisms with no genetic code of any kind, and could reproduce without any protiens (that are required for all of life today to orientate, reproduce and distribute oxygen).
Now, like I said, I'm no boat expert. But a simple Google of the largest wooden ships in history tell me that the arguement for the boat that don't float is irrelevant without some design flaw in the ark itself.
Tessarakonteres - 420×58 ft Thalamegos - 377.3×46 ft (2 storeys) Caligula's Giant Ship - 341 ft
Many completely wooden ships were over 300 feet, and some documented even over 400. To assume that a boat that God asked Noah to build would not float makes no sense, unless the real discussion is if God exists at all. Since boats of this size have existed, there is no question that the boat COULD have floated. And if it is plausible, then the question is, is God real? Because if he is, then God would have known what the boat needed to be (strength, shape, and size) for it to survive.
"There never was any global flood. There was never a deluge and therefore no need for an ark"
if you think you are the first one to blurt this out without looking at the layers of the earth, you aren't. There should be a topic for this is in a thread somewhere, yes? However I have always found it amusing that evolutionists refuse to believe that the earth was never flooded, even though over 90% of it's surface is water, but mars was flooded, with only 10%. Some estimates go as high as 50, but still do not even come close to earth.
If you want to discuss if the layers of the earth are signs of a flood, or millions of year time periods, I'm game. One look at the polonium halos in the granite in the precambrian layer will tell you it is not 250+ years old, and could not have taken millions of years to form.
I didn't mention the ark, because it is the subject, not evidence for. This is like saying my truck is brown, compared to my truck.
"You would still have to show evidence that it actually existed if you wanted to make the story believable."
Sure. My first question is however, why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
But you are right we are here for facts. The bible claims that the boat came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly. Let's see what else the bible says. Noah sent out a dove every morning, until it returned with an olive branch. Olive trees grow by mount Agri in the same area. The bible also makes the claim that after the flood Noah planted a vineyard, and locals to this day have vineyards there. As well, the surrounding cities and landmarks are named after Noah, Sehr-I Nuh (city of Noah), Sefinet Nebi Nuh( the ship of Noah) the name of the summit of Mount Judi. It all sounds very funny to compare Noah with Santa, but it is not reasonable. And like I said, I am a reasonable man.
Man this thread is a busy one. I'm not sure where I left off here, but somehow we are into fossil formation...
"Some do, at least from conditions very similar, especially where "soft parts" are fossilized, which is a rare event among rare events."
Not entirely, since extreme cold can cause this as well. Absolute zero freezing causes all internal organs to be preserved. Case and point, the palm trees in the north pole, and mammoth graveyards in northern Siberia.
"Care to show evidence of these frozen palm trees at the north pole?"
I would love to:
quote:In fact, 55 million years ago the Arctic was once a lot like Miami, with an average temperature of 74 degrees, alligator ancestors and palm trees, scientists say.
That conclusion, based on first-of-their-kind core samples extracted from more than 1,000 feet below the Arctic Ocean floor, is contained in three studies published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.
quote:PALMS flourished in the Arctic during a brief sweltering period about 50 million years ago, according to a study that hints at big gaps in scientific understanding of modern climate change.
The Arctic "would have looked very similar to the vegetation we now see in Florida," Appy Sluijs of Utrecht University in the Netherlands said.
Evidence of palms has never been found so far north before.
The scientists, sampling sediments on a ridge on the seabed that was about 500km from the North Pole 53.5 million years ago, found pollens of ancient palms as well as of conifers, oaks, pecans and other trees.
quote:Northern polar regions: Abundant remains of tropical animals have been uncovered in icy Greenland, Alaska and Siberia.
In these same northern polar regions are numerous fossil trees: beech, myrtle, laurel, breadfruit, cinnamen, oak, walnut, banana, grape vines, and so on. And from a line north of Labrador across to Alaska: giant sequoias.
Spitzbergen and Greenland now shiver in darkness for half of the year and lie almost continuously under snow and ice. Yet a rich, temperate flora once covered these icy wastes in the Arctic Ocean. Fossil remains of magnolias, fig trees, palms, arborescent ferns (which are typically tropical) and animals from warm climates have been discovered… also pines, firs, spruces, cypresses, elms, hazels and water lilies.
South polar region: Redwood forests are found buried under massive ice deposits. These towering giants (now typically found in the north-west of the U.S.A.) once flourished in many diverse parts of the world, as evidenced by many coal and fossil finds.
Back to the Arctic Circle: Here are two very interesting island groups - the New Siberian Islands and the Spitzbergen Islands. Remarkable things have been reported by explorers who have been there.
Immense frozen gravel mounts were discovered to have entombed within them entire fruit trees with the fruit still on them. In the New Siberian Islands, whole palm trees have been found, with their leaves and fruit.
quote:During the past two hundred years, startling discoveries have been made in the far frozen north above the Arctic Circle. Over 96,000 huge ivory tusks have been recovered from mammoths that were mysteriously buried in tons of ice.
quote:One of the most astonishing finds was the Berezovka Mammoth discovered in 1901 next to the Berezovka River in northern Siberia. This perfectly preserved creature was found in the upright position with fresh grass and tropical plants still in it’s mouth. It had been frozen and entombed in tons of ice so quickly that it didn’t have time to swallow and it’s mouth was full of tropical plants and grasses.
quote:In one 600 mile stretch along the Siberian coast of the Arctic Ocean, it is estimated that over 5 million mammoths once lived along with other TROPICAL animals. The remains of huge tropical trees are still being freed from the ice every year and washing up on the coasts of the New Siberian Islands Oil drilling rigs in Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay have brought up many tropical plants including parts of palm trees, pine trees, and tropical plants of huge size and many varieties.
"The remains of huge tropical trees are still being freed from the ice every year and washing up on the coasts of the New Siberian Islands Oil drilling rigs in Alaska’s Prudhoe Bay have brought up many tropical plants including parts of palm trees"