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Author
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Topic: ICANT'S position in the creation debate
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 536 of 687 (524657)
09-18-2009 12:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 534 by NosyNed
09-17-2009 11:24 PM
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Re: space and time
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes: There is no time. There is no space. I will agree there is no time. If there is no space what is that expanding between things in the universe? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 534 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2009 11:24 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: What Is Your Point? What Is Your Model?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: ICANT what is your point here? Time does not exist other than as a concept of man invented to measure duration/existence.
Straggler writes: Are you denying that a clock at the top of a mountain will progress at a faster rate than a clock at the bottom due to the gravitational effects of General relativity? No where have I denied that gravity or velocity or even dropping a clock does not effect the clock. The clock on the mountain runs faster because of less gravity. The clock in the satellite runs faster because it has less gravity and has the added effect of orbiting the earth. The duration/existence is the same regardless of whether the clock runs fast or slow.
Straggler writes: Oh so the whole of modern cosmology is a "smokescreen". Devised to bemuse and baffle the rest of us away from the truths that YOU, apparently, know. Actually the smoke screen I was refering to was all the added fluff that was discussed just to keep from discussing the question... What is spacetime?
Straggler writes: ICANT who doesn't even understand why an orbitting body is undergoing an acceleration, Velocity = A vector quantity whose magnitude is a body's speed . Acceleration = An increase in the magnitude of the velocity of a moving body, an increase in speed is called a positive acceleration; a decrease in speed is called a negative acceleration. If my car has the cruise control set at 70 mph and I am going down the road at 70 mph my car is not accelerating. If I have to slow by pressing the brake the cruise control releases and the car slows. When I press the resume button the car will accelerate to 70 mph and remain constant until you press the brake or encounter a incline in the road. When the car reaches 68 mph the cruise control will accelerate back up to 70 mph.
Straggler writes: Be explicit. How about just being honest. Science does not know the origin of the universe or life. Which has been stated in this thread. But that does not keep anybody from knowing exactly how it happened. Just go back and read the thread. There are so many problems with the BBT but nobody will discuss them. There are those who have said to me here at EvC that we need a new theory. But it appears until one comes along the BBT is the gospel truth. Everybody has the mentality that I know what I believe is right so don't question what I put forth as the truth. I know it is gospel because so and so said it. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 526 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2009 3:06 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 549 of 687 (524735)
09-18-2009 10:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 548 by Modulous
09-18-2009 8:37 AM
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Re Light
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: So, in short, you are either unwilling or unable to answer my question? You seem absolutely intent on changing the question every time I ask it. But I did answer your question. Just not accordingly to your expectations. According to relativity I am supposed to say the light is leaving us at the speed of light. The problem is, that it is not as pointed out by my one second stop/start Therefore the answer to your question is: The light is traveling at the speed of light which is 299,792,458 meters per second. We are traveling at 99.9% the speed of light which is 299,792,458 meters per second. Thus the light is pulling away from us by 299,792.458 meters per second. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 548 by Modulous, posted 09-18-2009 8:37 AM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 551 of 687 (524749)
09-18-2009 11:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 538 by Izanagi
09-18-2009 3:48 AM
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Re: space and time
Hi Izanaqi,
Izanaqi writes:
If change is a function of time, and time does not exist, then change doesn't exist Change is a function in existence. Time is a concept of measurement man invented to desiginate the length of duration/existense of that function. Example: We plant a watermelon seed. A plant comes forth from the ground. A bloom appears and the bloom turns into a watermelon. Time is a measurement we use to desiginate the length of duration/existence between each of those stages.
Izanaqi writes: We know things change in our Universe - our Universe is not static. I agree existence changes.
Izanaqi writes: Because things change in the physical world, we know that Time exists because change is a function of Time. I disagree. Events happen in existence/duration time only tells us the duration from one event to the next.
Izanaqi writes: Space and Time are linked to each other so we have spacetime. Only according to relativity.
Izanaqi writes: What you might be arguing against is the arbitrariness of the units of measurements for Time. That is, you might be arguing why a second is one value and not another value. A second could be any measurement we decided to place upon it. Our concept of the length of a second has no effect whatsoever on the length of existence/duration. It is just a number we invented that satisfies our mind.
Izanaqi writes: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that because we have an arbitrary definition for a second which can be changed at our whim, Time doesn't exist. Time doesn't exist because it simply does not exist. There is only now. Man invented the concept of time. Then devised ways of counting time. So he could measure the length between events in existence/duration. Nothing has a concept of time except man.
Izanaqi writes: Length is a property. Of what? Length, width, and height are unit's of measurment man has invented to desiginate the size of an object, or the distance between two or more objects. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 538 by Izanagi, posted 09-18-2009 3:48 AM | | Izanagi has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 552 of 687 (524757)
09-18-2009 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 550 by Modulous
09-18-2009 10:54 AM
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Re Light
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: If you do concede that we observe the light to be travelling away from us at the speed of light when we are travelling at high speeds, I will concede the light is traveling at the speed of light. But the light is only traveling away from us by 299,792 .458 meters per second.
Modulous writes: If, on the other hand, you are not conceding that we observe the light to be leaving us at he speed of light, then I'd be keen to hear how you explain the observations that run counter to your position. ICANT'S position on the question at hand. "what do we observe the speed of the light to be in the example?" The speed of light = 299,792,458 meters per second. 99.9% the speed of light = 299,792,458 meters per second. .1% the speed of light = 299,792 .458 meters per second. So we observe the light pulling away from us at .1% the speed of light. From message 483.
Modulous writes: I'm a spaceship. Ground control sends me a message which says that by the time that we receive this message we will be 1 light year from earth. We send a reply which says "Hello World!". At this point we are travelling at 50% of the speed of light. So about 150,000 kms (relative to earth). Now - we watch that signal moving away from us and we measure its speed: 300,000 kms (relative to us). Therefore, by addition the light must be traveling at 450,000 kms. This means that the signal will get to earth in less than a year. Using your numbers. You can not observe the signal moving away from you at 300,000 kms. Because you are traveling in the opposite direction at 150,000 kms for a total of 450,000 kms. Unless you stop. The speed of light is 300,000 kms so from the point the message was sent it is traveling 300,000 kms and that is the reason it covers one light year in one light year. Because you were traveling 150,000 kms in the opposite direction has no effect on the speed of light.
Modulous writes: Or how about this. I have two lasers that fire 'at the same time' in opposite directions. They are aimed at clocks that are equal distance apart. When the clock receives a burst of laser light they will reset to 12:00. I put this arrangement on a train travelling at half the speed of light. Clock..........L..........Clock direction ------> From inside the train my friend presses the 'on' button. He observes that the light reaches both clocks at the exact same time so they both read "12.00". But I'm outside the train. The clock on the left is moving towards the laser beam and so the laser has less distance to travel. The clock on the right is moving away from the laser beam and so has to move further. So the clocks are not synchronised. First thing. If you are standing still outside the train you won't even see the train go by, must less the clocks inside. If you are keeping your face glued to the window of the train car in which the event takes place you will observe the same thing as the person inside.
Modulous writes: I would love to hear how you square the constancy of the measured speed of light with your concept of 'duration'. What is there to square? The speed of light exists. It exists in existence/duration. It can get from point A to point B in existence. The length of that existence/duration is determined by the distance between point A and point B. It is then designated that it took x amount of time according to man's concept of the measurement of time. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 550 by Modulous, posted 09-18-2009 10:54 AM | | Modulous has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 554 of 687 (524764)
09-18-2009 1:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 547 by Rrhain
09-18-2009 8:16 AM
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Re:Life
Hi Rrhain,
Rrhain writes: And my response was that your question is non-sensical. At the very least, it is extremely naive for it assumes that things as they are now are how things have always been. The question was simple. The answer just as simple. NO The following question would have been, "has there ever been life on earth that was not produced by life?" The correct answer would be, as far as we know, NO. With all the experiments that have been conducted there has not been one speck of life produced nor has there ever been an observation of life begining to exist from non life. Now with all the evidence against life begining to exist from non life, you can by faith believe it did if you so desire too. Because you have no scientific evidence that says it can.
Rrhain writes: Then that means god can die. Which means god cannot be infinite. Since we've just contradicted ourselves, that means god is not alive. The physical part that dies is nothing but a body that the mind and spirit reside in. And yes the physical part can die just as the physical part of man can die. But as the Spirit, and mind of God can not die neither can the spirit and mind of man die. The physical part of God did die on the cross to make it possible for man to be reunited with God. The Mind and Spirit was given a new eternal body to reside in, in the resurrection and will never die. Just as mankind who was made in God's image will receive an eternal body in the resurrection for his mind and spirit to reside in. It will then spend eternity with God or eternity in the lake of fire. That will be determined as to whether man accepts the free full pardon offered by God. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 547 by Rrhain, posted 09-18-2009 8:16 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 562 by Rrhain, posted 09-18-2009 3:33 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: space and time
Hi Hyro,
Hyroglyphx, writes: In other words, you can't have space without time or time without space. That's why physicists refer to it as "spacetime." Why can't you have space without time? All you have to have for space to exist is existence. Now if events take place in that existence in space humans need some way of measuring the existence between events. Thus mankind invented the concept of time then came up with numbers to desiginate such interval's.
Hyroqlyphx writes: time itself is a physical property of the universe. A lot of people here keep repeating that. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: What Is Your Point? What Is Your Model?
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: I appreciate that my posts to you of late will not provoke an attitude of thanks) and go forward having learnt something? Why is your pride and arrogance so huge that you cannot admit to having been wrong on something? I don't have a problem with your attitude, never have. Each is welcome to his/her being. But since you keep rewriting definitions for words why don't you take the time to put together a new dictionary of the english language so we can all know the cavediver meaning of words. Rather than the meanings that we can find presently given for the words. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 539 by cavediver, posted 09-18-2009 4:36 AM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: space and time
Hi Hyro,
Hyroqlyhx writes: Time and space are relative to the motion of an observer and are not independent of each other. So when mankind is destroyed by the heat of the sun as it dies, Is the universe going to cease to exist because there is no observer? Existence exists whether there is an observer or not. Things will continue to change without anybody to mark time. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: space and time
Hi Hyro,
Hyroglyphx writes: The universe is expanding at a finite rate. That is questionable. It depends on the CMBR being a fact.
Hyroglyphx writes: I'm sure you are away that because light travels in a vacuum at a measurable and constant rate, I have read where light travels x speed in a vacuum. A vacuum being an absence of anything. The light we see in the universe from different objects is not traveling in a vacuum. There is no such thing as empty space as it is said to be inhabited by dark matter.
Hyroglyphx writes: If space and time began at the same moment, Is there any scientific evidence that they did begin simultaneously? What is space? I think I understand what space is. Space is a place where objects exist with some things in that space crowded and some not so crowded. I can see space it is what is between all those objects. What is time? My understanding of time is, that it is a concept of man invented to measure duration/existence. But I am told it is a dimenson. Which is a concept of man. I am told it is a property of the universe. Which is a concept of man. Is time physical? If so what is time made of? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 566 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2009 12:53 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 574 of 687 (525050)
09-21-2009 11:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 568 by Straggler
09-19-2009 4:01 PM
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Re: What Is Your Point?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Yet radioactive isotopes will continue to decay at he same half life rates, trees will continue to grow the same rings that we use as a form of scientific clock now etc. etc. etc. Things will exist as they have always existed.
Straggler writes: How do things change without time? They exist.
Straggler writes: No ICANT it isn't. Time actually runs slower in a stronger gravitational field. The mechanism marking man's concept of time runs slower in a stronger gravitational field.
Straggler writes: If you go round a bend still at a speed of 70MPH you are accelerating. That is the point here. This is extremely basic physics ICANT. I have to agree that this is what is taught in physics. I just disagree.
Straggler writes: You also refuse to accept that the answer "we don't know" is a strength of science rather than a weakness.
I don't mind the answer to the question, "what is the origin of the universe?" to be "we don't know". Just in the next breath don't tell me I am ignorant and unlearned and stupid to think I know because some book I have read tells me that God created the heaven and the earth. If you don't know the origin of the universe that book has a good possibility of being correct until proven wrong by scientific, verifiable evidence.
Straggler writes: The problem is that you think you understand the problems What makes you think I think I understand the problems. I have only pointed out problems that are well known and have been put forth by scientist not by me. I had a thread where I asked that those problems be discussed. They were not discussed by anyone. It was admited there was problems but that inflation solved all the problems. End of discussion. The next problem is there is no theory of inflation. There are a lot of hypothesis.
Straggler writes: predictively verified and evidenced beyond all reasonable doubt. Then why do all those questions remain unsolved?
Straggler writes: you can validly just insert your own unevidenced nonsense in place of established science. There is no established science when it comes to the origin of the universe or life. So my unevidenced nonsence is just as valid and your unevidenced scientific nonsence. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 568 by Straggler, posted 09-19-2009 4:01 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 575 of 687 (525054)
09-21-2009 11:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 567 by NosyNed
09-19-2009 2:29 PM
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Re: so muddled
Hi Ned,
NosyNed writes: You have muddled up quantum mechanics and relativity. I thought they did a pretty good job of muddying up each other as they are incompatible. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 567 by NosyNed, posted 09-19-2009 2:29 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 576 by NosyNed, posted 09-21-2009 11:35 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 577 of 687 (525058)
09-21-2009 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 571 by Izanagi
09-19-2009 10:12 PM
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Re: space and time
Hi Izanagi,
Izanagi writes: Change is movement in space. Explain how an apple changing from green to red is a movement in space.
Izanagi writes: But if you are correct and Time does not exist, then we should be able to express speed without using Time. Grandma is slow but she has existed a lot longer than you have. That dude is traveling at a snail's pace. But that guy in the red car is traveling as the cheetah runs. You are as slow as a turtle.
Izanagi writes: Express speed mathematically without using Time. When did man's concept of math begin to exist? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 571 by Izanagi, posted 09-19-2009 10:12 PM | | Izanagi has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 590 by Izanagi, posted 09-22-2009 10:02 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 578 of 687 (525059)
09-21-2009 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 576 by NosyNed
09-21-2009 11:35 AM
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Re: so muddled
Hi Ned,
NosyNed writes: You comment is true and utterly irrelevant to the issue of your muddledness. It does help support another facet of your thinking though. I will totally agree that I am looking through dark glasses that have a lot of fuzzy accumulation over the years on them. I just keep looking for the lens cleaner and a few good wipes to clear away a litle of the mud so a little light can shine through, so I won't be so confused. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 576 by NosyNed, posted 09-21-2009 11:35 AM | | NosyNed has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 599 by Rrhain, posted 09-23-2009 12:09 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 579 of 687 (525061)
09-21-2009 12:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 560 by Izanagi
09-18-2009 2:43 PM
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Re: space and time
Hi Izanagi,
Izanagi writes: Any change on the xyz-axes creates a new event and the duration between the events is what Time is.
The duration between events is what man invented the concept of time to be able to desiginate how far apart these two events were. It could be desiginated as, 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, or 1 year. If we only had a way to determine how long each of these lasted in duration. I know what we could do. We could divide up the light and dark periods that seem to be on a regular basis. Lets say 12 hours of light and 12 hours of darkness. Then we further divide up 1 hour into 60 minutes and then 1 minute into 60 seconds. Now we can apply that to any duration/existence we desire. It only means that we have decided to decree that according to our concept of time x amount of time has expired between 2 events. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 560 by Izanagi, posted 09-18-2009 2:43 PM | | Izanagi has not replied |
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