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Author Topic:   Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral
Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 161 (521697)
08-28-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by purpledawn
08-28-2009 1:51 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
purpledawn writes:

Although you don't seem to like addressing my posts, the Midianite story is a very good example.

I told you the answer to this already. Balak the king of Moab paid the Midianites to hire a man to curse Isreal. This maliciousness is what provoked God to kill the Midianites. As for all your other examples, they are simply following Jewish law. Disobedience to the LORD is a sin. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, disobedience to the LORD is death. Before Jesus came to earth, man was held accountable for his sins. When Jesus came he fulfilled that requirement.

No one has answered my question yet. Would you send your son or daughter to be tortured and killed so that the very people who tortured and kill him/her could have a chance at salvation?

Edited by Holyfire23, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2009 1:51 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Rahvin, posted 08-28-2009 2:59 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 93 by Modulous, posted 08-28-2009 3:00 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 94 by hooah212002, posted 08-28-2009 3:01 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 3:14 PM Holyfire23 has responded
 Message 97 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2009 3:20 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 92 of 161 (521698)
08-28-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 2:53 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
No one has answered my question yet. Would you send your son or daughter to be tortured and killed so that the very people who tortured and kill him/her could have a chance at salvation?

False dilemma. God is the one making all of the rules, including setting the terms of the debt. He could have just, you know, forgiven everyone without using himself/his son as a human sacrifice. Your scenario posits that only two options are possible when, as I'm sure you would agree, "all things are possible with God."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 2:53 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 93 of 161 (521699)
08-28-2009 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 2:53 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
Balaam the king of Moab paid the Midianites to hire a man to curse Isreal.

He paid them all?
And they all consented to cursing Israel?
And they were all fully informed of what doing so would mean?
Even the ones that were literally born yesterday?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 2:53 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 94 of 161 (521700)
08-28-2009 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 2:53 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
I told you the answer to this already. Balaam the king of Moab paid the Midianites to hire a man to curse Isreal.

Verse please.

As for all your other examples, they are simply following Jewish law. Disobedience to the LORD is a sin. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, disobedience to the LORD is death. Before Jesus came to earth, man was held accountable for his sins. When Jesus came he fulfilled that requirement.

Yep, your god, and all of the people involved in this bible fo yours are fucking sick, twisted individuals if they feel the need to kill babies. Christianity? No thanks! I'll pass.

No one has answered my question yet. Would you send your son or daughter to be tortured and killed so that the very people who tortured and kill him/her could have a chance at salvation?

Cuz you havent asked that until now. I'll give a hearty hell no to that question tho.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 2:53 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

    
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 95 of 161 (521701)
08-28-2009 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Holyfire23
08-26-2009 11:07 PM


holyfire writes:

Tell me this. Is it wrong for these men to be doing this. Is this not evil? In our culture this is repulsive, but in their culture it is a way of entertainment. If you subscribe to the belief that morality is subjective to cultural interpretation than these men who do these awful things cannot be held accountable for what they do.

Way to slander an entire people with an anecdote! Nice. Isn't fun to marginalize groups of people and play the Us and Them game? You know They probably filmed these acts and put them on Thai public broadcasting, thats what THEY call entertainment. Isn't it easy to pretend that people far away and out of sight are SO different from us? Hey, we believe Bronze age mythology, might as well adopt Bronze age world-views as well (here there be dragons).

You do know that under Thai law these men would spend the rest of their undoubtedly short lives in a deep dark hole, don't you? You ought to be ashamed of yourself for spouting this filth about a nation of people.

Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Added two missing words that clarified the meaning


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Holyfire23, posted 08-26-2009 11:07 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1319 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 96 of 161 (521703)
08-28-2009 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 2:53 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
No one has answered my question yet. Would you send your son or daughter to be tortured and killed so that the very people who tortured and kill him/her could have a chance at salvation?

Let's see. To make this equal to what supposedly happened in the Bible:

If I could have my child tortured for three days, after those three days, my child returns to me to live at my side, no longer in pain, for all of eternity, and after that, everyone on the entire planet has a chance at eternal happiness and joy?

If I knew for a fact that this is how it would work out, and I knew my child consented to it as well, then yeah, maybe I would do so.

But of course, if it turned out that I was the one who made the rules that people are breaking, and I had the power to change those rules, or make those people stop breaking them, or give people the option for eternal happiness and joy without sacrificing my child for even a second, then doing so would be a pretty heartless and evil thing to do.

So, me being human, would I do it? Yes.
Me being an omnipotent and omniscient deity with command over the entire universe, would I do it? Hell no, I'd be a monster if I did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 2:53 PM Holyfire23 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 5:10 PM Perdition has responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 97 of 161 (521705)
08-28-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 2:53 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
quote:
I told you the answer to this already. Balaam the king of Moab paid the Midianites to hire a man to curse Isreal. This maliciousness is what provoked God to kill the Midianites.
And I showed you in Message 11 that that was not the reason God gave for the vengeance. Numbers 25:16-18, which you quoted, said specifically why and it had nothing to do with king trying to curse the Israelites.

quote:
As for all your other examples, they are simply following Jewish law. Disobedience to the LORD is a sin. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, disobedience to the LORD is death. Before Jesus came to earth, man was held accountable for his sins. When Jesus came he fulfilled that requirement.
Show me the laws that pertained to those incidents in Message 83.

Which law says death is the penalty for calling someone a name? If the man was bald, it was a true statement.

Which law says they were not allowed to touch or look in the ark under penalty of death

Which law says you will die if you refuse to stab someone for no good reason at the Lord's command? (I would call that an illegal order.) Now if the prophet had explained that he needed to appear injured to carry out a job for God, the man might have helped him; but was it worth death?

quote:
No one has answered my question yet. Would you send your son or daughter to be tortured and killed so that the very people who tortured and kill him/her could have a chance at salvation?
I have answered that in Message 86, which you probably haven't read yet.

I would not ask my child to suffer for a useless action that serves no purpose. God didn't, and still doesn't, need a sacrifice to forgive people. God didn't, and still doesn't, need any ransom paid. I'm not sure what other dogma you have dancing around in your head, but these cover the most common ones.

Those people already had a chance at salvation. The path for the Jews didn't change.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 2:53 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 161 (521719)
08-28-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Perdition
08-28-2009 3:14 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
Perdition writes:

But of course, if it turned out that I was the one who made the rules that people are breaking, and I had the power to change those rules, or make those people stop breaking them, or give people the option for eternal happiness and joy without sacrificing my child for even a second, then doing so would be a pretty heartless and evil thing to do.

Lets break this statement down. What if we removed rules so that people would not have to be punished for breaking them as you said in the begining of your first sentence? The whole world would result to anarchy. You can bet that many people would die because of that. So we can check that off as immoral.

What about the second part of the sentence in which you propose that God force people not to break the rules. That would take away our free will. God wants His children to choose Him of their own free will and love Him. Love is voluntary.

The third option was to find another way besides sacrificing your son to save all humanity. Unfortunately, that would fall in to place with your first suggestion. Death is the price that must be paid. The only thing that can repay sin is death. So this suggestion is not possible for the same reason as the first.

Throughout the OT the wrath of God is displayed many times. In every case, the people who are punished are punished because they did not follow God's commands. This is true for the Isrealites and the Gentiles alike. The reason we are in disagreement with one another is because my definition of sin is different from all of yours. So the real argument lies in the definition of sin. Before any more assertions about the Bible are made, let us first establish a common starting point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 3:14 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 5:22 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Coragyps, posted 08-28-2009 5:23 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2009 7:14 PM Holyfire23 has responded
 Message 115 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-29-2009 9:50 AM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1319 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 99 of 161 (521721)
08-28-2009 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 5:10 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
Lets break this statement down. What if we removed rules so that people would not have to be punished for breaking them as you said in the begining of your first sentence? The whole world would result to anarchy. You can bet that many people would die because of that. So we can check that off as immoral.

Where did I say not punishing people? I said, change the rules if they're not working, make it so people can't break the rules, or give people the option that the sacrifice supposedly gives.

What about the second part of the sentence in which you propose that God force people not to break the rules. That would take away our free will. God wants His children to choose Him of their own free will and love Him. Love is voluntary.

We're talking about me here. What would I do? If I cared about free will, I would let people make the choice without needing to punish them for choosing incorrectly. I wouldn't tell my child, pick between bananas or apples, then punish him/her for choosing bananas when I wanted him to pick apples.

The only thing that can repay sin is death.

Why? Because I made it that way? Why would I need to make it that way? Why can't the price of sin be $50.23?

Throughout the OT the wrath of God is displayed many times.

And this is my point. An omnipotent, omniscient being who gets royally pissed off when his own creations behave in the exact way that he made them, but not exactly as he would have them do it, is a tyrannical monster who does not deserve our respect, much less our blind obedience and faith. The fact that you think it does just shows how stunted your own moral growth is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 5:10 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 100 of 161 (521722)
08-28-2009 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 5:10 PM


Re: God Easily Provoked
In every case, the people who are punished are punished because they did not follow God's commands.

Including three-week-old boys, presumably because they failed to get themselves circumcized? What about the six-day-old ones, whose weenies weren't ready for that yet?

Can you begin to glimpse why not everybody buys into your "holy book?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 5:10 PM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 101 of 161 (521745)
08-28-2009 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 5:10 PM


Changing People
quote:
What about the second part of the sentence in which you propose that God force people not to break the rules. That would take away our free will. God wants His children to choose Him of their own free will and love Him. Love is voluntary.
Punishing people for not following the rules is a way to force them to follow the rules. You figure it is more humane to kill those who don't choose God instead of correcting the programming? They'd never know. As Rahvin noted God has hardened hearts on purpose and people suffered for something they had no control over.

God actually commanded his people to love him according to the Deuteronomist. He didn't really ask. God chose the Israelites. What passage gives you the impression God wants his people to choose to love him or that they have an option? Love me or die isn't really allowing the freedom to choose.

quote:
The third option was to find another way besides sacrificing your son to save all humanity. Unfortunately, that would fall in to place with your first suggestion. Death is the price that must be paid. The only thing that can repay sin is death. So this suggestion is not possible for the same reason as the first.
Wrong. Don't get confused in the whole wages-of-sin-is-death issue. Paul said the wages of sin is death, not God. Paul is not God and does not claim to speak for God. God did give laws that had death consequences. Not all laws had death as a consequence. So your statement that death is the price that must be paid is incorrect. Aside from the hardcore stuff repentance and restitution also "repay" sin.

quote:
Throughout the OT the wrath of God is displayed many times. In every case, the people who are punished are punished because they did not follow God's commands. This is true for the Isrealites and the Gentiles alike. The reason we are in disagreement with one another is because my definition of sin is different from all of yours. So the real argument lies in the definition of sin. Before any more assertions about the Bible are made, let us first establish a common starting point.
The Gentiles were only under God's laws when Israel was a nation in power and the Gentiles lived within their borders. The same as when we go to other countries or states. We fall under their respective laws.

Definition of Chata'-Translated Sin - Verb
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness

Why do you think our definition of sin is different than yours and why didn't you go ahead and provide your definition?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 5:10 PM Holyfire23 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Coyote, posted 08-28-2009 8:24 PM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 103 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 9:20 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 102 of 161 (521748)
08-28-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by purpledawn
08-28-2009 7:14 PM


A definition of "Sin"
Why do you think our definition of sin is different than yours and why didn't you go ahead and provide your definition?

I'll provide a definition. Here's what Heinlein had to say on the subject:

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful -- just stupid).

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2009 7:14 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 161 (521759)
08-28-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by purpledawn
08-28-2009 7:14 PM


Re: Changing People
purpledawn writes:

Why do you think our definition of sin is different than yours and why didn't you go ahead and provide your definition?

I provided my definition of morality. To be clear however, I define sin using the Gospel.

If you knew the Bible you would know that God is an infinite, all-knowing being. He knows what is good for us and makes the rules accordingly. Immorality and life are incompatible. Immorality not only leads to death for the immoral, but can potentially affect and/or corrupt the moral. (This is true even if you take God out of the equation.) The problem is, true morality is impossible without an infinite, all-knowing being. You are making moral judgements on the Bible based upon a morality invented by finite, fallible human beings i.e. Neitzche, Kant, Keikergard. Some of your view is consistent with that of the Christian religion (murder, rape, blah blah blah= wrong) some of it is not (the veiw that morality is relative.)

The reason God unleashed His wrath onto so many people in the Bible is because they were corrupting Isreal. The Isrealites were His people. They were the people he picked to be the forefathers of the His Son. When God punished a nation, it was because they were getting in the way of His plan--which was to save humanity, by sending His Son to die for the sins of man.

You might ask, "Why is God's plan so important that he would kill others in order to achieve it?" Because if he sat back and did not punish people for their actions then the whole world would resort to lawlessness and reject Him. This would lead to the human race dieing out and His plan to have a people that He could spend eternity with would have failed. It wouldn't have failed because of a mistake God made, but because of the corruption that man had brought on himself. The Bible does not teach that men are to define morality. That is a responsibility that only God is capable of holding. That is atheisms real beef with God. Atheists want to be able to define their own morality. As a result, they attack the Bible using their own versions of morality.

The real problem you guys have with God is this--you don't think God should be able to define morality for you. If another man came over and said, "You have to abide by my definition of morality." you would attack his definition also.

Can anybody give me a verse in the Bible where God told man it was ok to define morality? Can anybody give me a verse from the Gospel where man is told it is ok to murder? I can already answer that. However, you can still try.

Edited by Holyfire23, : No reason given.

Edited by Holyfire23, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2009 7:14 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-28-2009 9:47 PM Holyfire23 has responded
 Message 110 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 7:26 AM Holyfire23 has not yet responded
 Message 113 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2009 9:22 AM Holyfire23 has responded

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 104 of 161 (521763)
08-28-2009 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 9:20 PM


Re: Changing People
holyfire writes:

Can anybody give me a verse in the Bible where God told man it was ok to define morality?

I don't know, this comes awfully close:

Matthew 7:12 "In everything do to others as you have them do to you; for this the law and the prophets"


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 9:20 PM Holyfire23 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Holyfire23, posted 08-29-2009 1:11 AM Lithodid-Man has responded
 Message 107 by dwise1, posted 08-29-2009 3:20 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

    
Holyfire23
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 161 (521773)
08-29-2009 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Lithodid-Man
08-28-2009 9:47 PM


Re: Changing People
Lithodid-Man writes:

I don't know, this comes awfully close:

Matthew 7:12 "In everything do to others as you have them do to you; for this the law and the prophets"

Treat others the way you wish to be treated. This doesn't give man authority over the definition of morality. It gives man a tip on how to be treated nicely. Treat others nicely and you will also be treated nicely.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-28-2009 9:47 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-29-2009 2:27 AM Holyfire23 has not yet responded

  
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