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Author Topic:   How is Natural selection a mechanism?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 191 (815378)
07-19-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by AndrewPD
07-19-2017 3:57 PM


For example if I am born with stronger than average arms that is a biochemical event. But if I don't have children that trait won't enter the gene pool.

That's true. If you don't have children, then you are not participating in evolution.

If your strength translates into an increased chance to survive and to rear children to child bearing/siring age, then you have a greater chance to propagate your traits. The people/animals/plants that do not survive to bear offspring have zero chance to propagating their genes.

Surely that is abundantly clear.

If there is no disposition for me to be born with strong arms that disposition can't arise.

That's incorrect. You are ignoring the possibility that you will be a mutant having inheritable characteristics that your parents did not have. Natural selection operates on variation.

So how can selection explain somethings existence?

Selection is only part of the explanation. Obviously.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by AndrewPD, posted 07-19-2017 3:57 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 07-19-2017 4:25 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 191 (815424)
07-20-2017 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
07-19-2017 4:25 PM


You're still participating in selection. Whenever you kill something before it can reproduce, you're removing its genes from the pool.

Except that the statement did not say anything about killing something. It talks about someone who has an enhanced physical phenotype, but still does not have children. Regardless of how fit or superior such a person is, he does not contribute to evolution because his genes cannot propagate.

That said, in hindsight, I see that I was wrong. Because said super-man might well prevent some weaker person from getting the girl. So even though he does not propagate his genes, he may be part of the selection process.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 07-19-2017 4:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 07-20-2017 11:37 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 191 (815948)
07-26-2017 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by AndrewPD
07-26-2017 1:35 PM


It is challenging the idea that consciousness is an emergent property, that can be readily explained eventually and derived from natural selection.

You haven't made any such argument. Your thoughts are private because there is no outward indication of what goes on inside your head. That should not be all that surprising given that your skull is opaque. That condition would be the same whether or not consciousness was an emergent property.

Get a better argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AndrewPD, posted 07-26-2017 1:35 PM AndrewPD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by AndrewPD, posted 07-26-2017 7:10 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 114 by RAZD, posted 07-26-2017 8:25 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 191 (816150)
07-30-2017 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AndrewPD
07-29-2017 12:17 PM


Why the need for survival at all? (Including what does actually survive?)"

It is silly to ask the question of need regarding inanimate objects while the purpose for an instinct to survive for animals is a pointless question.

These kinds of why questions presuppose a particular type of universe that simply may not exist.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AndrewPD, posted 07-29-2017 12:17 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 191 (816200)
07-31-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by AndrewPD
07-26-2017 7:10 PM


it is that consciousness is private subjective and only directly accessible one person the experiencing subject. It is not accessible in principle to any other than the self.

The same thing is true about your brain. It is not accessible to people around you. Again, you haven't made a meaningful argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by AndrewPD, posted 07-26-2017 7:10 PM AndrewPD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by AndrewPD, posted 08-02-2017 12:00 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 191 (816329)
08-02-2017 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by AndrewPD
08-02-2017 12:00 PM


There are lots of ways to directly access a brain.

1) Generally we don't have such access.
2) You have not made the case that gaining such access does not provide clues to your mental state. We know that the opposite is the case. It is entirely possible that limitations on exploring the activity of the mind given access to the brain are strictly technological.

Get a better argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by AndrewPD, posted 08-02-2017 12:00 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 191 (816330)
08-02-2017 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Taq
08-02-2017 4:18 PM


If refrigerators don't violate the laws of physics, then neither does life.

Exactly. Why do creationists forget about the existence of the sun when they pursue their 2nd law of thermodynamics arguments?

Maybe the refrigerator example is too esoteric. How do they think babies develop from a small clump of cells? How do they think new borns can grow and develop into small infants just by drinking milk? Just where do skin cells come from?

Non-thinking, idiotic, grasping at straws, no logic, grrr.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Taq, posted 08-02-2017 4:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Taq, posted 08-03-2017 11:16 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 191 (816331)
08-02-2017 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tanypteryx
08-02-2017 5:32 PM


I agree that the brain processes the signals from the eye and constructs the sensations that we experience as sight, but the color component is primarily determined by the opsins in the cone photoreceptor cells of the eye activating wavelength specific nerves.

One might legitimately, ask "where do the eyes end and the brain begin?" The eye does some processing, but it generates electrical signals that the brain interprets. It is the brain that decides who we identify signals from those receptors.

Perhaps the distinction is just not meaningful.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-02-2017 5:32 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-03-2017 12:23 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 156 of 191 (816392)
08-03-2017 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by AndrewPD
08-03-2017 9:27 PM


A Refrigerator is intelligently designed. I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy.

You don't see...

What you are saying is idiotic. Have you ever seen ice form outside of a refrigerator? Do you know where the energy comes from that drives the weather allowing the creation of snow flakes, sleet, hail and other forms of ice. How about the hot sun you think so little of?

If there is energy input into a system, then it is possible to sort things into low entropy arrangements at the expense of gains in entropy in other systems or in other parts of the system. That is the role that the sun plays.

More examples of systems in which entropy may decrease. The forming of crystals, the turning of digested food into living human cells. The development of embryos into human beings. The condensation of water vapor into dew or rain.

Get a thermodynamics textbook and find out what the second law of thermodynamics really says.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by AndrewPD, posted 08-03-2017 9:27 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 191 (816449)
08-04-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by JonF
08-04-2017 10:05 AM


Re: 2nd Law
The second law applies to all systems. The dS >= Q/T formulation applies only to closed systems.

Bingo...

It is not just the scientifically untrained Creationists who bungle the 2nd law of thermodynamic. Here is something a PhD holding creationist had to say about the topic:

quote:

Rensberger is ignorant of the creationist responses to this argument. An energy source is not enough to produce the specified complexity of life. The energy must be directed in some way. The ice cubes of his example would not form if the electrical energy was just wired into liquid water! Instead, we would get lots of heat, and the water breaking up into simpler components, hydrogen and oxygen.

This is Dr. Safarti making pretty much the same mistake that AndewPD makes when he says that refrigerators are intelligently designed machines that violate the 2nd law. The easy counter argument is pointing at ice forming without a refrigerator or any one of the other easily citable examples already presented in this thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by JonF, posted 08-04-2017 10:05 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 172 of 191 (816522)
08-05-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by AndrewPD
08-05-2017 2:08 PM


Re: the original topic issue was ... ?
This is survival of the fittest that has been described as tautologous because it means that anything that survives is defined as fit.

But this led making a value judgement about traits which had a negative social effect. And so people decided which traits they thought were being or would be selected.

Yes. Some idiots did take that social step.

Natural selection seems entirely negative. It implies nature is deselecting bad traits.

Negative selection is not the whole of it. That is part of it, yes. But some new traits are an improvement over the norm, and natural selection favors those. That would be a positive selection. Some traits are neutral in some environments, beneficial in others, and possibly even detrimental in another environment. So selection would not even remove the traits from the entire population, it would just emphasize different traits in different environments. You are telling half of a story.

I am exclusively gay and that has led to the puzzle of how this ruthless mechanism wouldn't have weeded that out.

Unless being exclusively gay is an inheritable trait, "weeding" out exclusive gayness via natural selection is not really what the theory of evolution is about, now is it?. That is a further example of how natural selection is being misused in your rant.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by AndrewPD, posted 08-05-2017 2:08 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 191 (816622)
08-08-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by AndrewPD
08-05-2017 2:45 PM


It is not the case for him at least that evolution is just an observation but that it is a paradigm that should govern how we view ourself and our behaviour and how we should seek to interpret reality.

You are lying. Dawkins, like Darwin, made observations about what natural selection and evolution produce. I don't see in the quote you posted any endorsement that things ought to be that way.

We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes.

You saw the words robot, blindly, and selfish did you not? Those words do not describe how we should govern our behavior. They instead state what Dawkins believes occurs. You simply lied and then attributed the lie to someone else.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by AndrewPD, posted 08-05-2017 2:45 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 191 (816643)
08-08-2017 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by AndrewPD
08-05-2017 1:51 PM


Human interventions do seem to effect entropy because volitional actions and intelligent perception allow us to create improbable states of order.

Not restricted to humans. Birds can arrange fallen twigs, leaves, etc into a nest. Beavers can dam up streams. Both are examples of entropy decreases in a part of a system.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by AndrewPD, posted 08-05-2017 1:51 PM AndrewPD has not yet responded

  
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