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Author Topic:   What is the origin of instictive behavior to care for our kin?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 17 (522996)
09-07-2009 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Jack
09-07-2009 10:09 AM


Hi Mr Jack, Nice post.
Offspring carers evolved from non-offspring carers, first through by providing short term, mild care and later by more and more complex caring behaviour. Each change providing an incremental benefit to their fitness.
I would think that it allows young to be born earlier, thus reducing the impact on the mother (ability to avoid predators etc), and reducing the impact of death of the mother on the continued living young (with others around to care for it), and finally that it would allow earlier sharing of responsibility of feeding young from just the mother to other individuals.
Each of these would provide a small, but evolutionarily significant, increase in the ability of the mother and offspring to survive.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 09-07-2009 10:09 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Ragged, posted 09-07-2009 2:26 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 9 by Richard Townsend, posted 09-07-2009 4:50 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 09-07-2009 5:28 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 17 (523006)
09-07-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Ragged
09-07-2009 2:26 PM


Hi Ragged, long time no see.
How is that?
Precociality and altriciality - Wikipedia
quote:
Altricial, meaning "requiring nourishment", refers to a pattern of growth and development in organisms which are incapable of moving around on their own soon after hatching or being born. The word is derived from the Latin root alere meaning "to nurse, to rear, or to nourish", and refers to the need for young to be fed and taken care of for a long duration.[1]
In bird and mammal biology, altricial species are those whose newly-hatched or -born young are relatively immobile, lack hair or down, and must be cared for by adults; closed eyes are common, though not ubiquitous. Altricial young are born helpless and require care for a comparatively long time. Among birds, these include, for example, herons, hawks, woodpeckers, owls and most passerines. Rodents and marsupials are altricial, as are cats, dogs and humans.
Without care these young would die, because they are not developed enough to be precocial, this level of development occurs after birth while under care of parents\group.
Taking an extreme example, in humans this allows the birth of the child while the brain is still small enough to fit through the birth canal.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g183503303307587/
quote:
Most of the brain growth is completed by 5—6 years of age. At birth brain weight is 70% of an adult, 15% brain growth occurs during infancy and remaining brain growth is completed during preschool years.
Note that the skull bones are nearly fully developed but deform during birth to pass the canal and the sutures that bind the pieces in place form after birth:
http://www.landofskulls.com/site/1534698/page/893371
quote:
Did you know the human skull is almost at full size at birth? However, the cranium has not yet been compound together. In other words, the skull is flexible and distorted during birth therefore making it easier for woman to deliver a baby. And, after about 24 month after birth, the bones are fused together to form the adult skull.
The brain then grows to fill out the skull. Notice how this ties in to the source that says a human child is able to take care of itself at 8 to 11 years of age.
http://www.genefaith.org/...bases/resources/humdevchart.html
quote:
child - 8 - 11 yrs - Capable of independent survival
adult human life - 18+ yrs
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Ragged, posted 09-07-2009 2:26 PM Ragged has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Ragged, posted 09-07-2009 9:21 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 17 (523019)
09-07-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Jack
09-07-2009 5:28 PM


Hi Mr Jack,
The many species that scatter their young to the currents generally produce very, very small undeveloped young that are highly disposable.
Yes, but these young are still capable of living on their own - they are still "precocial" in that regard (if the word can be applied to larvae), and - it seems to me - the grown organisms are generally smaller than those that do care for their young, even minimally.
I was thinking more of the contrast between minimal care precocial animals and maximal care altricial animals, rather than in general to all organisms, where the altricial species are generally less developed than the similar precocial species.
Precociality and altriciality - Wikipedia
quote:
In Biology, the term precocial refers to species in which the young are relatively mature and mobile from the moment of birth or hatching. The opposite developmental strategy is called "altricial," where the young are born helpless. Extremely precocial species may be called "superprecocial." These three categories form a continuum, without distinct gaps between them. Precocial species are normally nidifugous, meaning that they leave the nest shortly after birth.
The span between precocial and altricial species is particularly broad in birds. Precocial birds, including many ground-nesting species, have offspring that hatch with well-ossified skeletons, with good sight, and covered with feathers. Very precocial birds can be ready to leave the nest in a short period of time following hatching (e.g. 24 hours). Many precocial chicks are not independent in thermoregulation (the ability to regulate their own body temperatures), and they depend on the attending parent(s) to brood them with body heat for a short period of time. Precocial birds find their own food, sometimes with help or instruction from the parents. Examples of precocial birds include the domestic chicken, many species of ducks and geese, waders, rails and the Hoatzin. The most extreme, superprecocial birds are the megapodes, where the newly-hatched chicks dig themselves out of the nest mound without parental assistance, and fly on the first day after hatching.
Many precocial birds get minimal care from parents, similar to crocodiles, turtles, snakes and lizards
In fact, if anything, the opposite is true: cared for young represent a much larger investment of energy than scattered young.
We also see precocial animals that are large investments of energy, and which receive minimal, if any, care after birth, so it's not a strict linear relationship, more of a scattered one.
Perhaps
Edited by RAZD, : splink

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 09-07-2009 5:28 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 09-08-2009 5:31 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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