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Author Topic:   Spiritual Death is Not Biblical
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 281 (524548)
09-17-2009 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dawn Bertot
09-16-2009 6:10 PM


Re: Biblical Text
If I say you will DIE if you run in front of a train, that is plain and simple and immediate, that is not what author is saying even in the Old testament passages
Do we know that for certain? How would Adam or Eve have any concept of death, either physical or spiritual, if they had never witnessed it or were never instructed on it?
The seeming conclusion is that Adam and Eve were born to die to serve as a testament to the futility of doing anything apart from God.
The other conclusion is that God gave them the temptation indirectly because he is the one who created them ex nihilo with his own specifications in mind. Doesn't that make God responsible for the outcome?
In YOUR view are these the words of God or men
Likely from man, but I have no way of knowing either way.

"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind." -- Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-16-2009 6:10 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-17-2009 2:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 281 (524569)
09-17-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dawn Bertot
09-17-2009 2:23 PM


Re: Biblical Text
I am busy presently but I will get to the rest of your questions later.
No problem, take your time.

"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind." -- Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-17-2009 2:23 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 281 (535182)
11-13-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
09-15-2009 8:50 AM


I figure I will officially enroll in the argument. This reply is not so much directed to you as it is everyone. I just needed a starting point to engage.
One example of this issue are the verses Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20
I certainly agree that these two verses are contradictory and that it is a rather convenient argument to state one is talking about spiritual death while the other refers to physical death.
It is debatable whether or not the writers of the bible borrowed from the Greeks version of Hades, as the reverse also may be true, that the Greeks borrowed from the Israelites.
Extra-biblical references from Flavius Josephus make allusions that he is instructing Greeks [Gentiles] on what hell is like and who is thrown in to the pit. However, most scholars seem to believe that it is either misattributed or a fabrication by early Christians. I happen to think it is a forgery based on the wording which is quite different from some of Josephus' earlier works.
I don’t feel that either verse is referring to a spiritual death or a future ethereal punishment. I don’t feel that the prophets or the Torah writers referred to spiritual death. Punishment and death were real time and physical.
The evolution of "hell" is much like the evolution of "Satan." There were sparse mentioning of Sheol and Satan, but Sheol seems not to be synonymous with the NT's concept of "Gahenna" (hell).
In fact, there is evidence that there is a split between Judaisms two largest sects (Pharisees & Sadducees) concerning things like heaven, hell, angels, etc.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 09-15-2009 8:50 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
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