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Author Topic:   Spiritual Death is Not Biblical
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 281 (534917)
11-11-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
09-15-2009 8:50 AM


OT, e.g. Genesis, Depicts Spiritual Death
PD writes:
Ezekiel 18:20 writes:
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
It has been argued that the punishment in these verses may deal with spiritual death and not real time physical punishment or death.
I feel that the verses show a change in the society. The Priestly Exodus verse is corporate oriented and pertains to those who supposedly hate God. Probably written before the fall of the southern kingdom.
In Genesis 2:17, this (ASV):
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This verse clearly implies spiritual death, for the record states that Adam lived physically for centuries after he and his wife ate of the tree.
Spiritual death renders one unable to commune with God aside from an intercessor/priest and sin sacrifice. Thus the Levitical priesthood and temple worship etc. As well, thus the death of Jesus on the cross, the innocent one having inherrant eternal spiritual life.
By the same token, thus the necessity of the spiritual birth as per Jesus's message to Nicodemus in John 3:3 through 3:7 as follows (ASV):
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
(embolding mine for emphasis)
Conclusion: That sinful mankind must be born anew spiritually clearly implies that at some point mankind became inherantly spiritually dead, requiring redemption/spiritual renewal, via sacrifical death of the christ/messiah/saviour of the world, Jesus who died once and for all for the sins of mankind.
This is why nobody will ever see the Kingdom of God or the bliss of Heaven aside from spiritual renewal which the KJ version alludes to as the new birth/"born again" This is effected as one receives Jesus as savior as per John 1:12 which means on receives the spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit which is the multipresent spirit of Jesus, his father, Jehovah, and the self same spirit that effects the renewal/new birth of Christians at the time of conversion.
The purpose the Holy of Holies of the temple where the priest was to go in once yearly to sprinkle the sacrificial blood on the alter was to cover the sins of the penitent until the ultimate sacrifice of the lamb of God, Jesus. Thus at the death of Jesus on the cross the thick sturdy veil that kept all out of the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom, ripping it open, ending the temple worship and Levitical priesthood. That the holy place was torn from the top means God himself tore it down.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 09-15-2009 8:50 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2009 8:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 281 (534934)
11-11-2009 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by purpledawn
11-11-2009 8:05 PM


Re: OT, e.g. Genesis, Depicts Spiritual Death
PD writes:
What does spiritual death mean?
The Bible is not a dictionary. We all know what spiritual means and we all know what death means. God told Adam he would experience death the very day that he ate. At that moment he was booted from the presence of God in the garden and walking with God in it.
Textual fact 1. Something within the being of Adam died that day, which was not a physical death.
Textual fact 2. God prepared animal skins to cover the nakedness of man, implicating the substitutionary death of animals as a remedy for spiritual death of mankind. The text also says that animal sacrifice for sins was instituted as the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of Adam's family as per the blood sacrifice of Abel being acceptable and the sacrifice of vegies as per Cain being rejected.
I will do as you say and read up. In the mean time if you have not already addressed my specific points, a response would be appreciated.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2009 8:05 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2009 7:35 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 201 by Iblis, posted 11-13-2009 4:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 281 (534992)
11-12-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by purpledawn
11-12-2009 7:35 AM


Re: Doctrine of Spiritual Death
PD writes:
That is not a textual fact. There is nothing in the text that says "something" within Adam died that day. The textual fact is that God didn't kill them when they ate from the tree. God disciplined them in a different way.
The text says that Adam would die the day he ate. The context of Genesis also says he didn't die physically that day, so go and figure; some aspect of Adam's being died the day he ate. One would be extremely contextually liberal to interpret otherwise.
PD writes:
Textual fact, God prepared covering for A&E. Nothing more. You're reading later concepts into the plain text.
Contextual fact: God required a blood sacrifice for sins as per Abel and Cain, sons of Adam and Eve. Corroborate that with the animal skin covering etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2009 7:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2009 7:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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