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Author | Topic: Spiritual Death is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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Hi purpledawn,
it seems like ages since we've discussed anything! you would do well to begin with exactly what you mean by spiritual death. In my opinion a spiritual death is when God cuts a person off from his presence. In this sense, we could say that Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death before they suffered a physcial death. Similar with Cain, he was banished from the sight of God (so to speak) And its also noteworthy that isrealites who failed to comply with the law were to be cut off from the assembly. so what is your interpretation of a spiritual death? And how does a person come to life spiritually...because if there is a spiritual death, there must be a spiritual life too.
Show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text. Try Ezekiel 37:1-12 & vs 13-14 the prophet uses death to represent a change in the spiritual condition of God’s people when they were taken into exile in Babylon as punishment for their disloyalty to God. Zech. 7:11-14 speaks of the nation of isreal refusing to listen to God and thus becoming 'desolate' You could also look at these scriptures which also refer to the isrealites in captivity Isaiah1:5-6; 33:24 & 35:5-6Jerimiah 33:6 purpledawn writes: My contention is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah do not present a concept of spiritual death Isaiah speaks of spiritual food and shows the lack of it causes the spirit to 'breakdown' Isaiah 65:13-14"Look! My own servants will eat, but YOU yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but YOU yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but YOU yourselves will suffer shame. 14Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but YOU yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and YOU will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit" Im using this scripture to show that spiritual food leads to spiritual life and a lack of spiritual food leads to a breakdown of spirit. So a person could starve spriritually and be spiritually dead, they could also come back to life if they began to partake of spiritual food again. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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purpledawn writes: In ancient Judaism the body and spirit weren't considered separate. One can't be removed from the presence of God without the other. Dualism was a later Greek development. Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval ChristianityIn contrast with the monism of man in Judaism is the dualism in some Greek philosophers. One of the characteristics of the dualism of man is to consider human soul is in essence different from body, the former is entirely spiritual or intellectual substance and the latter is the temporary house or grave. In the A&E story, they are physically removed from the garden body and soul. The soul didn't die or cease to exist. One cannot survive without the other. Remember, in the story of A&E the soul is what gave life to the dirt. Removing the soul, removes the life. I just want to have clear on what you consider the soul to be. In judaism, the soul and body were one in the same as your link/quote suggests. Its also what i've learnt in hebrew studies the word Nephesh means 'human life' and its translated as 'soul' so soul is you and I according to judaism. Whereas Greeks taught that the soul is a force that lives on separate. Do you view yourself as a soul, or do you have a soul?
purpledawn writes: Ezekiel speaks of bringing the Israelites back to the land of Israel, but it doesn't speak of the human soul. remember your quote which said that Judaism believed in monism? The living people ARE souls.The soul wasnt something separate from the body, it was the living person. So in Ezeikle, the isrealites were said to suffer a death when they were taken by the babylonians. However they didnt physically die, the death must have been another kind of death: Ezekiel 37:9 "From the four winds come in, O wind, and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life.’ 10And I prophesied just as he had commanded me, and the breath proceeded to come into them, and they began to live and stand upon their feet, a very, very great military force. 11And he went on to say to me: Son of man, as regards these bones, they are the whole house of Israel. Here they are saying, ‘Our bones have become dry, and our hope has perished. We have been severed off to ourselves.’ 12Therefore prophesy, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: Here I am opening YOUR burial places, and I will bring YOU up out of YOUR burial places, O my people, and bring YOU in upon the soil of Israel. The prophet was speaking to the Isrealites who had been taken captive to Babylon. They were in that situation because God had allowed the Babylonians to destroy jerusalem becuase of their unfaithfulness to him. When God abandons them, they become to him as dead bones. They are in effect, spiritually dead. But the prophet speaks of them coming to life again when God breaths into them.
purpledawn writes: The land was left so desolate behind them. It isn't a reference to their spirit. God threw them physically out of the land, but the text isn't talking about a spiritual death. The body and soul are still together. ok now i know you are using the greek concept of soul and body. If you are reading the accounts of judaism, you probably need to consider their understanding of soul. It is as i said above "the living person" if a person dies, a soul dies. As Ezekiel says in the OP you mention "The soul (living person) that is sinning, it itself will die"
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Purpledawn writes: Yes, the people were physically exiled/separated from the land of Israel. They were being disciplined. They didn't view the body and soul as separate, so in what way were they separated from God? Other than location, what was different than when they were in the land of Israel? the difference was their current standing with God. They were in his bad books. He had removed his protection from them, he allowed them to be taken into captivity so he wasnt supporting them any longer. They were spiritually dead in that he had removed himself from their midst. They were on their own.
purpledawn writes: My contention is that the Jews did not see the two as separate at the time of these writings the prophets wrote about spiritual matters, and the physical condition of the people was the physical representation of their spiritual condition. This is why the wrote in the way they did. they used the physical conditions to explain the spiritual condition. For instance jerimiah warned of comming destruction as punishment because of their unfaithfullness. When they were spiritually healthy, the land was peacful, they had plenty of food and good things. But when they were spiritually dead, the land was desolate and the people would suffer.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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purpledawn writes: God supposedly removed protection, but I don't see that he was any less in their midst than he was before. if you look at the reasons why God removed his protection from them, it was always because they had turned aside from true worship. This is the message of the prophets over and over again. When they did not worhship him the way he directed, they were spiritually dead bacause God did not give them his spirit.
purpledawn writes: Are they only considered spiritually dead when God gets fed up with them? Its not about him getting fed up with them. Its about them remaining faithful and worthy of recieving his spirit. If you are alive you have life, but if you loose your life, you become dead.if you are spiritualy alive its because you have Gods holy spirit, but if you loose that spirit because he stops giving it to you, and you are spiritually dead. I dont know how much more simply I can put it then that. Having Gods spirit means being spiritually alive. the opposite is not having his spirit.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: The plain text of Ezekiel 37:9-12 just means God is bringing the Israelites back to the land out of exile. you cant read every verse in the bible as 'plain text' for the reason that the Hebrew language is full of metaphors and figures of speech. English cannot always convey those hidden meanings. You need to know a bit about Hebrew.
purpledawn writes:
this is exactly what im saying. A persons own spirit, or their driving force, is not contingent on having Gods holy spirit. But when they do have it, they are 'spiritually alive' The Holy Spirit is something different though. It is not connected to the physical life of the person. What you are describing is a loss of God's Holy Spirit, not anything to do with the individual's spirit. Ezekiel 37:9 is not describing such a situation. Ezekeil is most certainly describing such a situation.Look at verse 4 of ez 37. "And he went on to say to me: Prophesy over these bones, and you must say to them, ‘O YOU dry bones, hear the word..." please dont tell me that you think Ezekiel was literally speaking to a pile of dead bones in a valley plane. Piles of dead bones dont hear anything, nor do they spring back to life. It was to the people he was sent to give the message, and he was refering to them as 'dead bones' because of their poor spiritual condition. Oviously they were living when Ezekiel gave them his message, but they were'nt living 'spiritually' according to God. You need to separate the persons physical spirit (breath/driving force) from the spirit of God. When Gods spirit is upon his people, they are spiritually alive by virtue of having his spirit/holy spirit with them. But if he removes his spirit from them, then they are still living, but are spiritually dead in his eyes because they do not live with his spirit.
purpledawn writes: Ezekiel 37:9-12 speaks of Israel's return to their homeland. Did the Holy Spirit dwell with them again? if you read the whole chapter, you should be able to work it out.Here is ?Ez 37 from Vs 22 onward quote: it had an initial fulfillement on the nation of isreal back then, but it has a greater fulfillment in the christian congregation in modern times. Through Jesus, God has made 1 nation out of all the nations on earth to worship him.
purpledawn writes: So far we've learned that it has nothing to do with the common use of the word death and isn't a valid rebuttal to the examples given in Message 1. it has nothing to do with physical death. It has everything to do with your OP about 'spiritual death' and 'spiritual life'
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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purpledawn writes: From the ancient Jewish perspective, the Holy spirit is not a permanent resident in an individual. So from your usage the people are normally in a state of "spiritual death". no its not permanent, its something that God gives to those who obey him. Not everyone has Gods spirit so yes, many, people are spiritually dead. This means they are not in tune with God, they are not obeying his voice, they do not apply his laws and principles in their lives. He does not given them his spirit so therefore, they are 'spiritually' dead. Remember i'm not speaking about a persons own life or spirit here....im talking about Gods Spirit.
purpledawn writes: I said several times that Ezekiel 37:9 is saying that God is reuniting and rebuilding Israel. The wording is all creative. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned. I take it from this that you are not reading Ezekiel in its entirety. Its important to do so because the chapters that are in our bibles were put there, not by Ezekiel, but by translators so we could locate certain passages
quote: God does give his spirit to his people and he can also take it away. If he takes it away, then they become spiritually dead...like 'dead bones' as ezekiel put it. But as this scritpure shows, having his spirit is linked with obeying him and being in unison with God.
purpledawn writes: Show me that before the exile the Jews thought the Holy Spirit was a resident within each individual, not just in their midst. I dont think i understand your question. Did the jews view holy spirit as something they all had regardless, or as something they were given? I would say they viewed it as something given to them as individuals, and to the group as a whole. There are many examples where this is clearly their belief. in the acccount about Joseph explaining Pharohs dreams and doing so with the holp of Gods spirit. (i use holy spirit and spirit interchangably because they are the same thing)
quote:The egyption viewed Gods spirit as being with/residing in Joseph. Also Job 32:8 says that understanding comes from having Gods spirit8Surely it is the spirit in mortal men And the breath [spirit] of the Almighty [that] gives them understanding. here we are told that God gives us understanding by his spirit...by giving them his spirit. Isaiah says that the spirit of God was upon him to tell the good news in Isaiah 61:1 Speaking about how the Isrealites were protected by Gods spirit Nehemiah 9:20says :"And your good spirit you gave to make them prudent, and your manna you did not hold back from their mouth, and water you gave them for their thirst. 21And for forty years you provided them with food in the wilderness. They lacked nothing..." Also the account in Genesis about Rebecca who became pregnant in her old age with the help of holy spirit...her son Issac was said to be born in the 'manner of spirit' because God gave her holy spirit in her old age and she gave birth to Issac. There are many accounts about people being given Gods holy spirit so its safe to say that the jetws did believe tha God gave certain individuals his spirit for different purposes. However the verse in Nehemiah shows that the whole nation was given Holy spirit to protect them in the wilderness. So the holy spirit can be used for special purpposes on an individual, or it can be used upon a whole group of people at one time.
purpledawn writes: The verses in the OP deal with real physical death. but you state that 'spiritual death' is not an OT teaching...why would you use scriptures that talk about physical death if you wanted to discuss spiritual death? That ezekiel verse "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" is definitey speaking of physical death becaus 'Soul' in hebrew is the living person. Were you attempting to use this scripture to prove the idea that spiritual death' is not an OT teaching?? Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
i just thought i'd highlight these verses that speak of the spiritually dead. The christians including Jesus beleived in spiritual death. Jesus was not influenced by Greek philosophy but knew the torah like the back of his hand . these scriptures are in line with what you are saying about the hebrew word meaning death. To die physically is one thing, but the spiritual death has nothing to do with the persons physical death. They are not the same thing...alienation and rejection by God is what makes one spiritually dead. This is in harmony with Ezekiel who spoke of Isreal as a pile of dead bones.
Ephesians 2:1 "Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins" Matthew 8:22 "Jesus said to him: Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead." Colossians 2:13 "Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses" 1Timothy 5:6But the one that goes in for sensual gratification is dead though she is living. 1Peter 4:6"In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God"
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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EMA writes: . Your making a really simple thing very complicated. I second that motion!
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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purpledawn writes: Show me that it (spiritual death) is scriptural among the OT prophets and the writers of the Torah. i think Ezekiel shows that when he calls the nation of Isreal a pile of 'dead bones' and when he says that God will breath his spirit into them and they will spring to life.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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EMA writes: Even if one views this as a story the writer and the readers had a view of soul apart from the body and they clearly did not view death as extinction, the only problem with this statement is that the only 'soul' mentioned in the account is the witch's soul. She feared being put to death for practicing magic. This indicates that she and her hearers believed the opposite about 'soul'. It shows they believed souls could be put to death: Vs 9 "Why, then, are you acting like a trapper against my soul to have me put to death? Vs 21 "So she said to him: Here your maidservant has obeyed your voice, and I proceeded to put my soul in my palm and obey the words that you spoke to me. When she sees the so called "Samuel" she doesnt say she sees a soul but rather she sees a 'god' Vs13"But the king said to her: Do not be afraid, but what did you see? And the woman went on to say to Saul: A god I saw coming up out of the earth.
EMA writes: It would not be unscriptural to insist that Samuel although dead still existed in another form] this also does not fit with Psalm 146:4-3 "3Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.(Why are we told not to put our trust in other humans?) 4His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish Nor does it fit in with Ecclesiatis 9:5"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" Im sure you can call to someone all you like, but if they are conscious of 'nothing at all' then there is no way they are going to hear and answer you. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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EMA writes: Yes she would have thought that it was a god, but her contention and estimation notwithstanding, the scripture says it was Samuel who appeared in spirit form so your belief has a contradiction. You just said : "the key words always in Eccl are "under the sun", ie, "the dead know nothing under the sun", thier reward and memory are gone from the living. They are concious of nothing "under the sun" according to Ecclesiaties and your estimation of it above, no one in the grave should be conscious of anything going on under the sun...or in the land of the living. Thats what Gods word says. Yet you believe that 'Samuel' was conscious of what was going on under the sun, otherwise how could he have responded to anyone who called to him.? Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined:
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EMA writes: Come on Peg, theres a difference between someone calling him from earth and Samuel hearing them and God knowing what saul was doing and God dispatching him to Saul and the witch. God dispatched so you believe that after God had ordered the execution of all those who practiced in divination and false religion, God suddenly has a change of heart and is now cooperating with the witches and sorcerers? surely you dont beleive that??? if you read the account you'll see that the writer says that God had abandoned Saul and would not speak with him...Saul was to be given into the hands of the philistines becuase he was unfaithful to God. This is why Saul went to the witch in the first place, it was becuase God refused to give him any information about the philistines.
EMA writes: God dispatched Elijah and Moses as well to the tranfiguration, regardless of if they knew anyother specifics of what was happening under the sun. the transfiguration is the most mistunderstood account in the whole bible. It was a vision and nothing more. Moses and Elijah prefigured Jesus Christ and his role as the deliver. When Jesus was on earth, he fulfilled all of the things spoken about him including the roles that Moses and Elijah performed. the vision was to assure the apostles that Jesus was in the role of both Moses and elijah....the roles that prefigured the Messiah. death is the opposite of life and once we are dead, thats it. Our spirit (breath) goes out, we go back to the ground...from dust you are and to dust you will return.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
EMA writes: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have EVERLASTING life" You believe what you want, Im going with (John)Jesus on this one yet you believe that when people die physically, they continue to live on in another form and therefore they already have everlasting life why do they need Jesus?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
How would an Isrealite come to the conclusion that the much discussed death verses in the Adam and Eve story meant 'spiritual death' rather than just plain 'death'?
In Genesis it reads "For in the day of your eating from it you will positively die" we know they died hundreds of years later according to Genesis, so right here is the answer They died, not physically, but in another way on the day they ate from it. what other way is there to die? Ezekiel said that Isreal had become a pile of dead bones becauas they had been unfaithful to God....they were dead in Gods eyes because they left him spiritually. They still dwelt in the promised land, but they were not worshiping him, therefore they were 'spiritually' dead. Adam and Eve chose to leave God too when they disobeyed him and therefore they were dead in a spiritual sense because they no longer lived according to Gods spirit, but chose their own path. My conclusion is that 'spiritual death' is most definitely an OT concept.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Why can't God be considered merciful in the A&E story? The story does not imply spiritual separation from God. They still had a relationship with God after they left the Garden. he did show them mercy when he made them clothing from animal skins. I do not see how the account mentions any such continued relationship with God. It speaks of them being expelled from the garden and condemned to death...how can those circumstances mean they still had a relationship with God? And what versus are you reading to draw that conclusion?
purpledawn writes: In chapter 4 Eve said she had gotten a man from the Lord. In 4:25, Eve said God gave her another son to replace Abel. Although they suffered the penalty for their disobedience God was still with them. yes thats what she said...but did God confirm her belief? Is there a verse to show he agreed with her? What she believed may just have been a belief of her own...just as she believed she would be in a better position if she ate from the tree.Do you have a verse in genesis that shows otherwise?? purpledawn writes: Now you've stated that spiritual death deals with the removal of the Holy Spirit from the people. Now you are saying they left God spiritually. What do you mean by that? Just the worship practices? What in the text shows that all the Israelites weren't worshipping God? you really are complicating things and im not even sure how you are understanding 'spirit' as opposed to 'holy spirit' as opposed to 'spiritual' a spiritual person = a person who persues things, or is interested in things pertaining to God. A spiritual person puts more emphasis on those things then on material things. But they do not necesarily have Gods holy spirit because that is a gift from God. holy spirit = Gods active force or power that he uses to accomplish things. He can give to his people to perform powerful works, or he can give it to them to comfort them or to teach them, or to make them feel a sense of inner peace....there are many ways he uses the holy spirit but it doesnt mean that once you've been given some, you have it forever more. He has to keep giving it to you and you only get it by maintaining a relationship with him. Spirit has more then 1 meaning. The hebrew and greek words Ruach and pneuma, have a general meaning of breath but also have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.They can mean wind, the vital force in living creatures, a persons demenor, spirit persons including God and his angels So how are you applying the term 'spirit' in this discussion? When you say A&E did not die a 'spiritual' death, what is the spriitual death you are refering to?
purpledawn writes: Show me in the text that they weren't living according to God's spirit. They boys were making sacrifices to God. God gave Adam and Eve children. Adam and Eve are not described as doing anything else wrong in the story. Now they knew right from wrong. if A&E were living according to Gods spirit, they would have been loyal and obedient but they werent. They beleived the lie of the serpant, they questioned Gods law, then they willfully disobeyed him. After that they tried to hide from God, then they tried to put the blame on someone else for thier actions. so if you think that they were acting in harmony with Gods spirit, you are wrong. Gods spirit is holy and pure and innocent...they lost any holiness, purity and innocence when they disobeyed him and acted decietfully. thier sons are a different matter. They were born into a condition of sinfulness and therefore cannot be compared with A&E. If you think that A&E werent too bad, then you do not have Gods view on the seriousness of their actions.They introduced sin and death on the whole human race. It is because of them that God does not speak with us, or govern us directly today. And really, they knew right from wrong before they ate from the tree. They knew what the law about the tree was and they knew not to touch it. So they did know right from wrong. Even Eve said "from all the trees God said we may eat, but from the tree of knowledge of good and bad he has said we must not eat from it"
purpledawn writes: But it isn't presented in the story. You're placing a Christian concept on a very old Hebrew story. Show me that the words express spiritual death. yep, i already did that "In the DAY of your eating from it, you positively will die" What changed for them on the day that they ate? Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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