Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

EAM writes: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------PD writes:Great, thanks for that response, now lets do it one more way, In YOUR estimation,(YOUR BELIEFS) are these the words of God or of men. It always helps if you have a common frame of reference. Not if it is irrelevant but in your educated opinion, whos words are these in these texts we are quoting.PD writes:Its hardly a 'schtick', depending on who one sees as the author of these words. I do like that word (schtick)though, its like that word 'Magilla', if I spelled that right. Its one of those funny words that hardly gets used anymore. It also tells me something of you age, Ha, HaIt will become extremely important once discussion begins. Also, if this line of reasoning looks familiar it should, its the same question Jesus put to the skeptics of his day, when he asked:"The teaching of John, was it of God or man?"It makes all the difference in the world and in the scripturesIll respond to the rest of the post once you clarify this point.Hey, thanks again.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

CD writes:You seem to be a happy go lucky kind of fella, again thats funny, it adds a bit of spice to an otherwise uptight situation, your a gas.the automated computer writes:I guess cavediver makes mistakes as well, its ok Ill overlook it if you willEAM

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Show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text.

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What about Daniel 12:2? The NET Bible study note for this verse says:

Hey Peg,

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you would do well to begin with exactly what you mean by spiritual death. In my opinion a spiritual death is when God cuts a person off from his presence. In this sense, we could say that Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death before they suffered a physcial death. Similar with Cain, he was banished from the sight of God (so to speak) And its also noteworthy that isrealites who failed to comply with the law were to be cut off from the assembly.

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so what is your interpretation of a spiritual death? And how does a person come to life spiritually...because if there is a spiritual death, there must be a spiritual life too.

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Great question and an excellent way to get a discussion rolling.I agree that spiritual death is presented in Christianity as the separation or alienation of the soul from God. I'm not sure whether you meant that or physically separated since you said presence.In ancient Judaism the body and spirit weren't considered separate. One can't be removed from the presence of God without the other. Dualism was a later Greek development. In the A&E story, they are physically removed from the garden body and soul. The soul didn't die or cease to exist. One cannot survive without the other. Remember, in the story of A&E the soul is what gave life to the dirt. Removing the soul, removes the life.Since there is no actual death in the current usage of spiritual death, the text of the A&E story doesn't support the idea of spiritual death. If one actually dies, they both die.

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Try Ezekiel 37:1-12 & vs 13-14

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the prophet uses death to represent a change in the spiritual condition of God’s people when they were taken into exile in Babylon as punishment for their disloyalty to God.

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Ezekiel speaks of bringing the Israelites back to the land of Israel, but it doesn't speak of the human soul.

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Zech. 7:11-14 speaks of the nation of isreal refusing to listen to God and thus becoming 'desolate'

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The land was left so desolate behind them. It isn't a reference to their spirit. God threw them physically out of the land, but the text isn't talking about a spiritual death. The body and soul are still together.

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You could also look at these scriptures which also refer to the isrealites in captivity Isaiah1:5-6; 33:24 & 35:5-6
Jerimiah 33:6

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I don't see how the plain text in these verses deals with spiritual death.

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Isaiah speaks of spiritual food and shows the lack of it causes the spirit to 'breakdown'

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Isaiah 65:13-14
"Look! My own servants will eat, but YOU yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but YOU yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but YOU yourselves will suffer shame. 14 Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but YOU yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and YOU will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit"

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I don't see that Isaiah is speaking of spiritual food. The text seems to be referring to real food. The breakdown of spirit is their mood or frame of mind due to the hardship.I'm looking at the plain text and I don't see the connections. I see a later concept projected backwards.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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EAM writes:

So be even more helpful in helping us to understand what your position on these texts are, ie, mans words, Gods and mans words, Gods words only, or, I dont know, or, I dont care or its irrelevant to the subject at hand, from your perspective

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PD writes:

It is irrelevant to this discussion. Either the text says what it means or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean what it says, then evidence is needed.

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Great, thanks for that response, now lets do it one more way, In YOUR estimation,(YOUR BELIEFS) are these the words of God or of men. It always helps if you have a common frame of reference. Not if it is irrelevant but in your educated opinion, whos words are these in these texts we are quoting.

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It is extraneous to this discussion. Either the text says what it means or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean what it says, then evidence is needed.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The book of Daniel in Judaism is classified with the writings not the prophets. This reads as a physical resurrection, not something in heaven. What in the text makes this ethereal (unrelated to the real world)?I guess I was thinking of a harsher punishment than shame and contempt. Most people bring out the lake of fire.

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The book of Daniel in Judaism is classified with the writings not the prophets.

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True. I didn't know how restrictive you were trying to be with your terms. Daniel was a Jewish prophet, and in Christianity the book is grouped with the Major Prophets.

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This reads as a physical resurrection, not something in heaven.

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Agreed.

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What in the text makes this ethereal (unrelated to the real world)?

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This seems to be describing a punishment which is everlasting, not temporal. I would associate this with spiritual death.

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I guess I was thinking of a harsher punishment than shame and contempt. Most people bring out the lake of fire.

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From the OT? There may be a suggestion of this in Isaiah 66:24, but this is probably not speaking of an everlasting punishment.Edited by kbertsche, : typo

PD writes:If I say you will DIE if you run in front of a train, that is plain and simple and immediate, that is not what author is saying even in the Old testament passagesIf the text means what it says and we should take it at face value, why did Adam and others live to extreme ages, was God lying. If God meant death at some future point, it is not evidenced in the text is it. So how can we take the text at face value, your argument seems to make no sense. You seem to want it both ways. Now since this flexible interpretation is clearly evident, it may mean something else given the various definitions of the word 'Soul', given by the author I provided in the link.There is also a word for spirit which has 9 different meanings depending on the text.this is a Bible fourm, we are dealing with spiritual questions, the question as to whether YOU believe these are the words of men or God is MORE than relevant. Now since I have demonstrated from the text that you cannot always determine what type of death is involved I would appreciate it if you would answer this simple question.That is unless you think it will put your position in contradictionIn YOUR view are these the words of God or men, please respondEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

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This seems to be describing a punishment which is everlasting, not temporal. I would associate this with spiritual death.

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From the reading it seems the stay on the planet, body and soul, but live in God's favor or out of God's favor. There really isn't any separation of the soul and body in this passage though. What are you seeing as spiritual death?The term, spiritual death, itself is confusing since the definition doesn't include death; just falling out of favor.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

1. This is a science forum.
2. I don't debate links.
3. Argue the position and not the person.

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If the text means what it says and we should take it at face value, why did Adam and others live to extreme ages, was God lying. If God meant death at some future point, it is not evidenced in the text is it. So how can we take the text at face value, your argument seems to make no sense. You seem to want it both ways. Now since this flexible interpretation is clearly evident, it may mean something else given the various definitions of the word 'Soul', given by the author I provided in the link.

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The tale of Adam and Eve is a "just so" type of story. It explained why things were the way they were. The word translated as die, means to kill. As the story progresses we see that God didn't kill them for their transgression and chose to throw them out of the Garden. Whether God lied or changed his mind is irrelevant. Adam and Eve were relocated and penalized; but they still had contact with God (Chapter 4), so they hadn't fallen out of favor with God. God even gave Eve a son to replace Abel.If you view spiritual death as alienation of the soul from God, I don't see it in this story since the writers probably didn't believe in dualism.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The word translated as die, means to kill.

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Why do you say it means "kill" instead of "die?" The Hebrew is mut in the Qal imperfect. I can find no translation that renders this "kill," and no grammatical reason to render it so.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

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There really isn't any separation of the soul and body in this passage though. What are you seeing as spiritual death?

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The term, spiritual death, itself is confusing since the definition doesn't include death; just falling out of favor.

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Perhaps you and I are defining "spiritual death" differently? NET Bible has this study note for Gen 2:17: Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

Ill take this as a tentative NO, to my question Is there only one meaning to the hebrew word 'Soul', only one application I thought I was.Requesting whether you believe these are the words of men or God is a reasonable request given the nature of the topic, even if you consider this a science forum. Given your present post I am forced to assume that you may not, and that the vast majority of it is simply metaphors and tales.In post 20 you wrote:Now you say God may have lied or changed his mind. now you say that in all the instances where God said people would die as a result of sin, that may not be the case. Does DIE mean what is says or doesnt it.Or, maybe there is more to the meaning of the words 'Soul' and 'die', than you are contemplatingNow watch this point, doesnt your explanation in this regard indicate without doubt that the term 'die' may not indicate physical death, only? The AMBIGUITY which you demonstrate in your explanations is nearly proof positive that one need not be dogmatic about its application.Further, if indeed this is actually a work of God or Gods words, then its meaning could have a spiritual application. there is no need to take a materialistic stance given the fact that in nearly no instance where God made this statement, people died immediately. Is it good exegesis to assume that in every instance and with every person God cahnged his mind or lied.Remember, this pronouncement was on humankind, not just two people in a garden. the logical conclusion is that the word 'Soul' and 'Die' in Ezekiel should be undertood comprehensively and not limited to a single definition. No one, not even the text is suggesting that spiritual death is a non existence. The separation is one of RELATIONSHIP not existence. Satans expulsion was from spiritual place in a Spiritual existence without going out of existence. The soul dies by ETERNAL separation from Gods immediate presence through separation while still in existence. "This is the second death"Understand this as well. By the of time Ezekiel the pronouncement, "the soul that sins it will die", had to have application in a spiritual sense, since people had already began to experience the consequences of Adam disobedience. again it makes no sense to threaten someone with what they know and have experinced already, unless there is a way of excape.Paul stated: "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ"Its all God's words and God's eternal plan from the foundation of the world I dont know where you pulled that out of. "thou shalt not kill", means "Thou shalt not die" ???PD writes:God is not a monster, nor does he deal in punishment exclusively. "relocated" as you say, hardly describes what was lost in the garden. they most certainly were separated from God by sin and began to die physically. if it is to be believed, Satan was most certainly separated from Gods Spirit, when he was cast out.However, God is God overall and the separation is one of relationship not one of existence. Satan was required to be at the Staff meeting of all the angels in Gods presence in the book of Job"Blessed is the man to whom God does not imput sin',(charge to his account)"There is now no condemnation tho them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"God does not take us out of existence and he is still in control of everything, including Hell and Satan. perhaps you could give your definition of dualismEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

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Why do you say it means "kill" instead of "die?" The Hebrew is mut in the Qal imperfect. I can find no translation that renders this "kill," and no grammatical reason to render it so.

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In the story God says that if they eat of the tree they will die. So death is the penalty for eating from the tree. If we were hearing the story for the first time, we might think the tree is poisonous, but once they eat of the tree we know that the tree isn't poisonous. So for Adam and Eve to die the day they eat, they would have to be killed. I think we have become so accustomed to the story that the drama is lost.

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Perhaps you and I are defining "spiritual death" differently? NET Bible has this study note for Gen 2:17:

Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God.

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That sounds like dualism which is a later concept. What changes when one is separated from God?Daniel 12 has also been considered an allegory for the restoration of Israel. If the scroll mentioned in Chapter 12 is the book of Daniel, then the resurrection described has already come and gone. The scroll was to be closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz