Thanks for the exchange purpledawn.
I hope things are well with you ...
purpledawn writes:
I think we're still talking about Ezekiel 37:9 and the dead bones. You stated that they had left God spiritually.
Peg writes:
Ezekiel said that Isreal had become a pile of dead bones becauas they had been unfaithful to God....they were dead in Gods eyes because they left him spiritually. They still dwelt in the promised land, but they were not worshiping him, therefore they were 'spiritually' dead.
You're saying that by not worshiping God that they are spiritually dead. That is a different definition that what you have given before. I'm asking for clarification. Earlier you said it was the removal of the Holy Spirit.
What does the word spiritual in the phrase "spiritual death" refer to?
If it deals with worshiping practices, what in the text shows that all the Israelites weren't worshiping God?
For the record, the following opinion shouldn't necessarily imply that I'm in agreement with Peg's various and vague definitions of 'spiritual' death.
The following assesment may be considered an attempt towards evidencing that the Yisraleites were not worshiping the Father in a commendable fashion. Now, as I understand things, brutha Ezekiel lent his service to Yisraeli tribemen for roughly 22 years, from 592 to 570 BCE, during their Babylonian captivity.
There's the sense that, for some time before this stretch of captivity, during the later years of the monarchy their priesthood fell into a bit of a rut. They seem to have taken the Father's kindness for granted during this stretch, as if assuming that the Father's covenant with their forefathers was irrevocable.
This assumption apparently contained the notion that, the ownership of their land was permanent as long as '
God was in their midst' - an idea they seem to have come to think was occuring as long as the Yerusalem Temple stood in Yerusalem (ie.
levitical catholicism's martial law - providing the Vatican stands, etc.).
I gather, at this point, that this widely held assumption led those within this specific tradition to believe that they were immune to any foreign captivity; an obvious farce. For, as we see - yet, to
their bewilderment, the nation becomes exiled from that land to live in Babylonian captivity as Yerusalem is captured.
Ultimately, it seems they may have become bitter, cynical and a bit disillusioned. Perhaps they wondered - '
How could this have happened'?
Is the Father impotent before Babylonian idols?
Perhaps, the Father became busy and forgot about us? To these ones, brutha Ezekiel is called to bring the Father's message.
So then, I conclude this message was delivered to various practitioners that had been convinced - yet, much more so to a priesthood that was making every effort and had consciously chosen, while setting out deceiving others towards doing much the same, to rebel against the Father's notions of social justice.
quote:
Ezekiel 2:3
The Father said to me, Son of man, I am sending you to the house of Yisrael, to the rebellious nations who have rebelled against me;
Both they and their fathers have revolted against me to this very day.
4 ~ The sons to whom I am sending you are obstinate and hard-hearted - even stern of face and hard of heart, and you must say to them,
‘This is what the sovereign Father says.’
These peculiar priests and particular practitioners are then repeatedly described as a rebellious house or a house of rebellion (
2:5,
2:6,
2:8, etc.).
In otherwords, perhaps,
a dead ol' pile o' bones ....
As Peg begins to mention in
Message 102, the nasty habits of idolatry displayed and promoted by a good portion of the Yisraelite priests and their deceived practitioners seem to take the most prominent place in brutha Ezekiel's charge against the depraved. As a matter of fact, idols are mentioned more often throughout the booklet of Ezekiel - over fifty times, than in any other book of the common roman bible.
Chapter eight goes on to describes the idol worship of Yisrael being openly promoted right in the temple by their very leaders - and supposed shepherds. At verse
seventeen the Father asks the prophet ...
Do you see this, son of man? Is it is trivial matter for the house of Yuhdea to do detestable things they are doing here?
Are idols something other than the things we create to take care of our needs in an attempt to justify our own selfish desires (
ie. my religion has some of the most fantastic blood magik tricks in the universe, and so, my perverse behavior is overlooked, while you burn in hell for your kindness, etc.)? Are they something other then artifacts, ideologies and notions intended to take care of our needs, self-created in an attempt to circumvent our dependency on the Father righteous discernment and provision (
ie. my country has some of the most powerful and wealthy allies on the planet, while the military presence it has accumulated is fucking huge and unstoppable, and so, you'll never defeat me evildoer, etc.)? Is it any wonder why idol worship in Yisrael was always connected with their foreign alliances?
Chapter sixteen then goes on to describe Yisrael’s idolatry in the most graphic of terms.
quote:
Ezekiel 16:26
You engaged in prostitution with the Egyptians, your sexually aroused neighbors*, multiplying your promiscuity and provoking me to anger.
27 ~ So see here, I have stretched out my hand against you and cut off your rations.
I have delivered you into the power of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed by your obscene conduct.
28 ~ You engaged in prostitution with the Assyrians because your sexual desires were insatiable;
You prostituted yourself with them and yet you were still not satisfied.
29 ~ Then you multiplied your promiscuity to the land of merchants, Babylonia*, but you were not satisfied there either.
30 ~ How sick is your heart, declares the sovereign Lord, when you perform all of these acts, the deeds of a bold prostitute.
31 ~ When you built your chamber at the head of every street and put up your pavilion in every public square,
You were not like a prostitute, because you scoffed at payment*.
32 ~ You adulterous wife, who prefers strangers instead of her own husband!
33 ~ All prostitutes receive payment*, but instead you give gifts to every one of your lovers.
You bribe them to come to you from all around for your sexual favors!
34 ~ You were different from other prostitutes* because no one solicited you.
When you gave payment and no payment was given to you, you became the opposite!
35 ~ Therefore O' prostitute, hear the Father's word:
36 ~ This is what the sovereign Father says:
Because your wealth - even your lust, was poured out and your nakedness was uncovered in your prostitution with your lovers,
and because of all your detestable idols,
and because you have slaughtered your children as blood sacrifices to your gods,
37 ~ therefore, take note: I am about to gather all your lovers whom you enjoyed, both all those you loved and all those you hated.
I will gather them against you from all around, and I will expose your nakedness to them, and they will see all your nakedness*.
38 ~ I will discern you as an adulteress and a murderer - as one who sheds blood, deserves*. I will avenge your bloody deeds with furious rage*.
39 ~ I will give you into their hands and they will destroy your chambers and tear down your pavilions.
They will strip you of your clothing and take your beautiful jewelry and leave you naked and bare.
40 ~ They will summon a mob who will stone you and hack you in pieces with their swords.
41 ~ They will burn down your houses and execute judgments on you in front of many women.
Thus I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer give gifts to your clients*.
42 ~ I will exhaust my rage on you, and then my fury will turn from you.
Then I will calm down and no longer be angry.
What were these Yisraelites searching for, if not an easy way to make a living and to accomplish a certain sense of safety, as well as, security outside of the Father's parameters? Regardless, they found religious - or 'spiritual', bondage; which led them straight into captivity ... physical bondage. Instead of trusting the sensible way to accomplish their feats, they trusted their idols and met defeat because of their lack of, and disregard for, the Father's knowledge.
Didn't Hoshea say something about, '
My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests'?
As an aside, all the way throughout Ezekiel, the Father continually addresses the prophet as 'Son of man' and the phrase is employed within his booklet roughly eighty times; more than five times as often as all the other books within the Original Testaments combined. Curiously, Joshua the Anointed One also referred to himself as the Son of man quite often and this title of sorts actually dominates his self-reflective discussions, particularly in the booklet of John.
Also, considering how verse thirty relates to - especially the last portion of, verse thirty six above ...
It seems worth noting that, before Joshua the Anointed One was hunted down by certain religious dogmatics (
Matisyahu 26:4;
Mark 14:1;
Luke 13:31,
22:2 ) and finally murdered by Caesar's ruthless militia as a result of the pleading on behalf of the ruling sects of Yuhdea, the ritual atonement killing of the Anointed One, apparently based on a legalistic regulation of the 'ToRaH of Moses', was instituted by the supposed prophet and certified high priest Yosef Bar Kayafa (
John 11:48,
49,
50,
51,
52,
53) as some sort of an alleged whole offering blood sacrifice, according to the witness of the common roman bible.
In the end, how sick were the hearts of Rome and Yuhdea, when they performed
that act?
Anyway, brutha Ezekiel’s message isn't so different from his older contemporary, brutha Yirmiyahu and, likewise, Ezekiel and Yirmiyahu's messages are, both, not too terribly estranged from their predecessor, the prophet Isaiah. Actually, the first few verses of brutha Isaiah's booklet, beginning with the Father's lament regarding the tribal Yisraeli folk who had evolved towards theocratic monarchism, seem to provide a concise overview of Ezekiel's booklet ...
quote:
Isaiah 1:2
Listen, O heavens, pay attention, O earth! For the Father speaks:
I raised children, I brought them up, but they have rebelled against me!!
3 ~ An ox recognizes its owner, a donkey recognizes where its owner puts its food; but Yisrael does not recognize me, my people do not understand.
Right after this, verses
four,
five and
six begin to describe the unfortunate condition of that nation, which one may safely assume is either the direct result of a lack of the Father's knowledge, if not the utter disregard of that knowledge. Naturally, verses
seven and
eight progress to describe the Father's righteous discernment towards the Yisraelites nation state, based on their behavior. Then, verse nine begins to provide a certain message of hope and it's following verses effectively identify various practices that seem to repress that hope, while finally topping this treat with some savory admonition ...
quote:
Isaiah 1:9
If the armies - who are unable to disregard the Father*, had not left us a few survivors,
We would have quickly become like Sodom, we would have become like Gomorrah.
10 ~ Listen to the Father's word, you leaders of Sodom! Pay attention to our Father's rebuke, people of Gomorrah!
11 ~ Of what importance to me are your many sacrifices? says the Father.
I am stuffed with burnt sacrifices of rams and the fat from steers.
The blood of bulls, lambs, and goats I do not want.
12 ~ When you enter my presence, do you actually think I want this — animals trampling on my courtyards?
13 ~ Do not bring any more meaningless - even worthless, offerings; I consider your incense detestable!
You observe new moon festivals, Sabbaths, and convocations, but I cannot tolerate iniquity and sacred celebrations!
14 ~ I hate your new moon festivals and assemblies; they are a burden that I am tired of carrying.
15 ~ When you spread out your hands in prayer, I look the other way;
When you offer your many prayers, I do not listen, because your hands are covered with blood.
16 ~ Wash! Cleanse yourselves! Remove your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong,
17 ~ Learn to do what is right! Promote justice! Give the oppressed reason to celebrate!
Take up the cause of the orphan! Defend the rights of the widow!
18 ~ Come, let us reason together and let’s consider your options, says the Father.
Though your sins have stained you like scarlet - as the color of blood, you can become white like snow;
Though they are as easy to see as a crimson red, you can become white like wool.
19 ~ If you have a willing attitude and obey, then you will again eat the good crops of the land.
So then, not only is this a rather concise overview of brutha Isaiah's booklet, but it is also one that may easily be regarded towards brutha Ezekiel's booklet as well. The possible exception may be that Ezekiel's booklet adds another principle - the principle of individual responsibility (
Ezekiel 18:20), which was also touched on by brutha Yirmiyahu (
Yirmiyahu 31:30), as well as, by purpledawn - repeatedly, within this thread and others.
The prophets continually speak about a person’s responsibility, towards social justice, before the Father. Perhaps this is a form of positive worship?
Nevertheless, the one who stands before the Father will give account of our their life; not of the crunked up lives of others.
And so, mangod idle's aside, if the prophets gave a clue - it was that the soul that keeps a sinnin' ... it'll die.
In the name of brother Joshua the Anointed One, peace be with you.
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : grammar
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ...
'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary
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