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Author Topic:   A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2263 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 241 of 297 (527050)
09-30-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Cedre
09-30-2009 2:33 AM


Allah existed before Muhammad's so-called revelation, in the form of al-illah a moon-god who was worshiped by the pre-Islamic Arabs, "al-ilah" was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new religion in 610 AD.

Yes but once Mohammad brought his religion out the Allah entity was assumed to be the God of Abraham. What people believed before Mohammad is irrellvent to the the Muslem faith


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 2:33 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 242 of 297 (527051)
09-30-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Modulous
09-30-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
Modulous writes:

But what strikes me as odd is that nobody, of all the thousands of people watching this website, wrote down my words at the time.


I may not have written them down, Mod, but I know exactly what your original post 81 was before you edited out your typing error. It even has the first edit you made, to take out your first typing mistake....

It's somewhere deep within my memory, cached for now, maybe someday erased....

(and now stored on my pc as well, to "persuade" you for when you actually sell some dvd's )


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2009 6:28 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 243 of 297 (527052)
09-30-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Modulous
09-30-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
What was the reason for the edits in Joshua's video evidence for his prophecy? None given. What was the original message? Not known. When did the edits happen? After the event.

You have no direct prove that TB Joshua's videos are altered and just based on a single clip you have seen, and its not even the original, you want to write them all off as having been edited. Well guess what there are at least 49 other confirmed prophecies, excluding the one you claimed has been fiddled with, until you can prove its been fiddled with its only a claim, and I have viewed many of them and none of them look edited, plus TB Joshua has tens of thousands of people that can confirm his prophecies, if you want to claim that tens of thousands of people, including critics cannot remember the content of his prophecies than I cannot take you seriously. Admit it you cannot use that line of attack to discredit TB Joshua's prophecies.

But what strikes me as odd is that nobody, of all the thousands of people watching this website, wrote down my words at the time.

That is because you were making a prediction and everyone knows you're not a real prophet and claiming to receive revelation from God, and because of that they didn't see a need to take note of you're prophecy, but it would still be ludicrous on your part to say that none of the thousands of people, you claim watch this website, took down your prediction, for starters you didn't go around asking who took it down.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2009 6:28 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Huntard, posted 09-30-2009 7:51 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 246 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2009 8:32 AM Cedre has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 244 of 297 (527055)
09-30-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Cedre
09-30-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
Cedre writes:

That is because you were making a prediction and everyone knows you're not a real prophet and claiming to receive revelation from God, and because of that they didn't see a need to take note of you're prophecy, but it would still be ludicrous on your part to say that none of the thousands of people, you claim watch this website, took down your prediction, for starters you didn't go around asking who took it down.


I have. I know exactly what he wrote originally in his post 81. And I can prove this as well, but I won't just yet.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 7:34 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 245 of 297 (527056)
09-30-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Cedre
09-30-2009 2:18 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
In other words the "desperate" measure of showing the necessity of seeing what was said BEFORE the event. And so far your only attempt to do so is to tell us to buy DVDs (which may well be edited after the event), watch TV channels we can't see (after telling us that we are unlikely to see an actual prediction!) or to refer to some skeptical oversight which - for all we can tell - does not even exist - you certainly have provided no evidence that it does.

I suppose that your attempts to manipulate and misrepresent the statistics of air crashes - up to the extent of denying actual statistics in favour of completely bogus "calculations" DON'T count as desparate in your eyes ? Because I happen to think that making a valid point is less of a sign of desparation than a glaring denial of reality is!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 2:18 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 8:37 AM PaulK has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 246 of 297 (527059)
09-30-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Cedre
09-30-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
You have no direct prove that TB Joshua's videos are altered and just based on a single clip you have seen, and its not even the original, you want to write them all off as having been edited.

I have direct evidence that the only video evidence I have of the prophecy being made was edited. You failed to provide a better one despite having an interest in finding it so I assume that the video is not currently accessible to the public.

I am not writing off all publically available videos of prophecies as being edited. I am writing off the video evidence that I have seen as edited. If you have a non-edited video of a prophecy please provide it.

Now - if you happen to know of a skeptic (not a critic, since many of the critics of Joshua aren't skeptics since they believe he is prophetic - but think he is doing the work of satan or some other agent) who has seen a live prophecy that has later been touted as coming true and who agrees that the prophecy was as is claimed...then we have something to go on.

Otherwise I'm going to have to remain skeptical since you have not provided anything that discriminates him from a conman. Sorry if that bothers you. If you can't take me seriously because of that, then so be it. I won't lose sleep over you not taking me seriously.

If you want me to be convinced that the man gave the prophecies that you say he did, I have provided the level of evidence I would want to be convinced of this. Either you have that evidence and I will be convinced or you don't and I won't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 7:34 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 9:11 AM Modulous has responded

  
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 247 of 297 (527060)
09-30-2009 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by PaulK
09-30-2009 7:58 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
I suppose that your attempts to manipulate and misrepresent the statistics of air crashes - up to the extent of denying actual statistics in favour of completely bogus "calculations" DON'T count as desparate in your eyes

Please that is a totally bogus statement, a completely unsubstantiated and bogus statement. My calculations are not misrepresentations of anything they are based on actual data I obtained from planecrashinfo.com, refer back to my calculations and point out a single figure that I simply imagined or dreamed up, my calculations still stand. You are the one who is ignoring statistics, your argument basically was, that every month starting from 2007-20089 reported an aviation accident using data you found on the same website and my calculations are also based on data from the same website and then you tried to conclude from this that aviation accidents are frequent, which is the wrong conclusions to make, like the article in pbs.org said.

My argument was that plane crashes are rare events although they happen, just like winning a lottery draw and being struck by lighting are rare events, which in fact have a higher chance of happening compared to being in a plane crash, and this does say something about the frequency of plane crashes, and For every statement I made I had a website to agree with it, in fact I was able to find websites that agree with me that plane crashes are rare but I could not find a single website that asserted that plane crashes are frequent events, which is what you claim. So to say that I twisted facts is just a plain lie.

And what Modulous did can only be described as clear desperation.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2009 7:58 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Huntard, posted 09-30-2009 8:56 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 250 by Huntard, posted 09-30-2009 9:12 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 251 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2009 9:13 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 252 by tuffers, posted 09-30-2009 9:26 AM Cedre has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 248 of 297 (527064)
09-30-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Cedre
09-30-2009 8:37 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
Cedre writes:

refer back to my calculations and point out a single figure that I simply imagined or dreamed up,


This one you wrote in Message 150:

Cedre writes:

assuming each month has got has 31 days...


That's made up stuff right there.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 8:37 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 249 of 297 (527068)
09-30-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Modulous
09-30-2009 8:32 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
I have direct evidence that the only video evidence I have of the prophecy being made was edited. You failed to provide a better one despite having an interest in finding it so I assume that the video is not currently accessible to the public.

I'm interested in seeing the original video but I haven't tried to find one as I'm currently having trouble with my browser , for some reason that is unknown to me it refuses to show any video.

Now - if you happen to know of a skeptic (not a critic, since many of the critics of Joshua aren't skeptics since they believe he is prophetic - but think he is doing the work of satan or some other agent) who has seen a live prophecy that has later been touted as coming true and who agrees that the prophecy was as is claimed...then we have something to go on.

Why won't other kinds of critics apart from skeptics suffice, for starters any critic of TB Joshua is skeptical of his claims, in fact I think that the critics might be more critical of TB Joshua because unlike the general skeptics these critics don't like TB Joshua a lot, and I see no reason that you should not regard their evaluation of the situation. If they detect any foul play as far as his prophecies are concerned they will use that instantly to jeopardize his ministry. To my present knowledge I know of no critic who has accused TB Joshua of employing deception in his prophecies, If you do let's have a name.

Otherwise I'm going to have to remain skeptical since you have not provided anything that discriminates him from a conman.

My job is not to convince, my job is only to present the facts, I let the facts do the convincing. Anyway the best you can do is to be skeptical of his prophetic claims and healing ministry that all you got at this point.

Sorry if that bothers you.
O no it doesn't bother me as much as it probably bothers you, but you should know I'm not member of the SCOAN, and I have no ties and affiliations with the SCOAN, my only use for the SCOAN is to demonstrate that there is evidence for the supernatural realm, and so far you are failing to falsify any of the facts I brought forth.

If you want me to be convinced that the man gave the prophecies that you say he did, I have provided the level of evidence I would want to be convinced of this.

As for me the existing evidence is quite enough at least in causing me to take this man seriously and not simply brush him off as a common charlatan more so when I have found no evidence against him.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2009 8:32 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2009 10:40 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 250 of 297 (527069)
09-30-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Cedre
09-30-2009 8:37 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
One other thing (sorry for the double post):

Cedre writes:

My argument was that plane crashes are rare events although they happen, just like winning a lottery draw and being struck by lighting are rare events


Compared to those (a person winning the lottery or being struck by ligthning) A planecrash is a very very likely event. Once again you used the statistics wrong.

which in fact have a higher chance of happening compared to being in a plane crash, and this does say something about the frequency of plane crashes

The likelyhood of A (notice the A here, this is very important) planecrash happening on any given day, is, according to your own numbers, 25%. For the third time: It matters fuck all what the odds for the individual are!.

So to say that I twisted facts is just a plain lie.

You didn't, you used the statisctics wrong.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 8:37 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 251 of 297 (527070)
09-30-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Cedre
09-30-2009 8:37 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
quote:

Please that is a totally bogus statement, a completely unsubstantiated and bogus statement. My calculations are not misrepresentations of anything they are based on actual data I obtained from planecrashinfo.com, refer back to my calculations and point out a single figure that I simply imagined or dreamed up, my calculations still stand.

In your FIRST use of planecrashinfo.com you attempted to restrict the data to only commercial flights - despite the fact that the claims of success mainly referred to private planes. Using the full number saw a four-fold increase. And that is just one example there are plenty more.

quote:

refer back to my calculations and point out a single figure that I simply imagined or dreamed up, my calculations still stand.

Only as an example of complete nonsense.

quote:

You are the one who is ignoring statistics, your argument basically was, that every month starting from 2007-20089 reported an aviation accident using data you found on the same website and my calculations are also based on data from the same website and then you tried to conclude from this that aviation accidents are frequent, but, which is the wrong conclusions to make.

In other words I "ignore statistics" by pointing out the fact that the REAL statistics contradict your "calculations".

The fact is that YOU ignore all the data on the distribution of crashes - and come to conclusions directly contradicted by that data.

quote:

My argument was that plane crashes are rare events although they happen, just like winning a lottery draw and being struck by lighting are rare events, which in fact have a higher chance of happening compared to being in a plane crash, and this does say something about the frequency of plane crashes, and For every statement I made I had a website to agree with it, in fact I was able to find websites that agree with me that plane crashes are rare but I could not find a single website that asserted that plane crashes are frequent events, which is what you claim. So to say that I twisted facts is just a plain lie.

And here you are doing exactly what you said that you didn't do - misrepresenting the figures. The figure we need to find out is the chance of a particular day having the sort of air crash that TB Joshua counts. The proportion of big commercial flights that crash is THE WRONG FIGURE because there are very many such flights every day and because TB Joshua includes many other flights. The chance of a particular passenger being killed in an air crash is the wrong figure (for the same reasons, and because there are often survivors). The number of commercial passenger flights that crash in a year is wrong, too for reasons I have already given.

And the alternative calculation - dividing the number of crashes by the number of days is one that YOU introduced. It isn't great, but it is better than your alternatives. And as soon as the result was shown to be one that you didn't like you started to tell people to ignore it - not because you had anything better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 8:37 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 9:35 AM PaulK has responded

    
tuffers
Member (Idle past 3349 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 252 of 297 (527074)
09-30-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Cedre
09-30-2009 8:37 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
Cedre

I haven't had time to read all the posts, so don't know exactly what statistics have been discussed, but it took me only a minute to find this information from Wikipedia:

The Geneva-based Aircraft Crashes Record Office (ACRO) compiles statistics on aviation accidents of aircraft capable of carrying more than six passengers, not including helicopters, balloons, or fighter airplanes. The ACRO announced that the year 2007 was the safest year in aviation since 1963 in terms of number of accidents.[9] There had been 136 accidents registered (compared to 164 in 2006), resulting in a total of 965 deaths (compared to 1,293 in 2006). 2004 was the year with the lowest number of fatalities since the end of World War II, with 766 deaths. The year with most fatalities was 1972, with 3,214 deaths.

I hope this convinces you that air crash fatalities are, unfortunately, in the high hundreds or low thousands every year. Therefore there is nothing at all remarkable about predicting that an unspecified family will tragically die in a plane crash in the next few weeks or months.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 8:37 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 9:40 AM tuffers has responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 253 of 297 (527078)
09-30-2009 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by PaulK
09-30-2009 9:13 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
In your FIRST use of planecrashinfo.com you attempted to restrict the data to only commercial flights - despite the fact that the claims of success mainly referred to private planes. Using the full number saw a four-fold increase. And that is just one example there are plenty more.

But I still used actual figures not cooked up figures. Modulous on the other hand used deception which I did not.

Using the full number saw a four-fold increase. And that is just one example there are plenty more.

Which is still a very small amount compared to the number of days that passed.

Only as an example of complete nonsense.

A rhetorical statement that proves nothing.

In other words I "ignore statistics" by pointing out the fact that the REAL statistics contradict your "calculations".

Which are real statistics and which are not real statistics? I gave you actually statistics that have been worked out by people in the field not numbers I made up myself. Here it is again being struck by lightning? (1 in 20 million)

Your odds of these two things are actually BETTER than being in an airplane crash (1 in 25 million)
Source(s):
http://www.nsc.org/research/odds.aspx.

Ontop of this I gave you a list of sites that agree with me that plane crashes are rare I could find none that stated they are frequent.

The fact is that YOU ignore all the data on the distribution of crashes - and come to conclusions directly contradicted by that data.

I did not ignore the data, I just made a logical conclusion that if so many days can be without crashes than at least a few months could also be without crashes, but even if every month reported a plane crash from 2007-2009 the numbers still conclude that plane crashes are rare and various websites agree with me.

The chance of a particular passenger being killed in an air crash is the wrong figure (for the same reasons, and because there are often survivors).

Please you are being dishonest with the facts here, number one individuals have a big chance of being in car crashes because care crashes are common, individuals have a big chance of drowning because drowning is common, etc, but on the other hand individuals have a smaller chance of winning the lottery or being struck by lighting because both these events are rare and in fact according to the above stats individuals have a smaller chance of being in a plane crash compared to being struck by lightning and winning the lottery because because plane crashes are rare, its the obvious conclusion to reach, why should plane crashes be an exception. Note these events do happen but they are said to rare.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2009 9:13 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2009 9:59 AM Cedre has responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 254 of 297 (527083)
09-30-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by tuffers
09-30-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
The statistics I present here reveal that its rare to be in an aviation accident, not a commercial flight accident but being caught up in an aviation accident is rare, thus it must have included the other kinds of aircraft.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by tuffers, posted 09-30-2009 9:26 AM tuffers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by tuffers, posted 09-30-2009 9:59 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2009 10:01 AM Cedre has responded

    
tuffers
Member (Idle past 3349 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 255 of 297 (527089)
09-30-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Cedre
09-30-2009 9:40 AM


Re: Desperate atheist resorting to desperate measures
No idea what you are on about talking about other types of aircraft.

But, if you want to be pedantic about aircraft types, the King B350 aircraft in which this family were tragically killed is not a jet aircraft as predicted by your prophet. It is a twin turbo-prop.

So, I guess you'd better wait for some other poor family to die in a private jet crash before you can claim how wonderful your man is. In the meantime, it might be helpful if he could give us their name and be more specific about the date.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 9:40 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Cedre, posted 09-30-2009 10:02 AM tuffers has responded

    
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