Catholic Scientist writes:
Exactly! Even if the concept that I didn't know about happened to be cheese, it was impossible for me to know if it existed or not. I had to be agnostic.
onifre writes:
Unless you are claiming that you know the description of this unknown force, then I would ask for the method you used to gain knowledge of it, and if you could please describe it.
What information am I lacking that is limiting my understanding of this unknown concept?
And once we start getting into those particulars, then you have something that you can be an atheist to. Before that, you're stuck in a position of agnosticism.
I think the difference lies in two different planes of being agnostic or atheist.
Plane 1: The thinking, internal mindsetHere I agree that we should be agnostic about cheese, and we all have to be agnostic about God or any other unknown concept.
That is, no one
knows one way or the other, and there are
possibilities for existence or non-existence that we should
always remain open to until repeated, objective refutation can (and does) occur.
Plane 2: How you act regarding the Plane 1 mindsetI think this is where the difference lies.
I agree with being agnostic (on a Plane 1 level) towards the concept put forth by Straggler before we knew it was cheese.
And hopefully we can agree that the logical, rational and consistent approach to this is to
act in an atheistic manner towards this unknown concept. That is we should not alter or add anything to our actions in reference to this unknown concept. Really, how could we? It is unknown what this concept either wants us to do, or how it could possibly influence our lives.
However, here is the difference:
I still
act in an atheistic manner towards the equally unknown "God" concept.
Believers, on the other hand, do not
act in an atheistic manner towards the equally unknown "God" concept. That is, they go to church, they worry about what "God" may think of them, some even (as we have seen) only act morally decent out of respect (honorable or fearful) of this unknown "God" concept.
Granted, the non-atheistic manner in which they act varies greatly from individual to individual. Some just go to church... others will go so far as to acknowledge possibly-crazy voices in their heads telling them to
kill other people in "God's" name.
I understand how our Plane 1
mindset must retian that sense of unknown tentativity of agnosticism in order to remain logical, rational and consistent.
But, in order to remain logical, rational and consistent, shouldn't our Plane 2
actions reflect an atheistic manner with an unknown "God" concept as much as we do with an unknown "cheese" concept?
I don't think many believers got the idea of going to cheese-church or accepting the moral cheese-government from that unknown concept.
My thoughts lead me to believe that it is nothing more than
social pressures (the popularity of belief, both current and historical) that cause believers to act in a non-atheistic manner towards the unknown "God" concept. Such actions are not logical, rational or consistent. Believers have latched onto these social pressures and created all sorts of ways "God" wants us to act or ways "God" influences our lives. But, in doing so, they have forgotten that they were supposed to have an
agnostic Plane 1, internal mindset about what God is (and therefore wants) until we can get more information. Since "God" is an unknown concept, it is actually impossible to know (or even get a glimpse at) what "God" may want or how "God" may influence our lives.
As far as this debate is going, I'd say that RAZD and CS are arguing from the Plane 1 level, and Straggler and Rrhain are arguing from the Plane 2 level. I also think that Straggler and Rrhain understand the Plane 1 level, and have voiced their tentativity regarding it. The questions they have are regarding the reasoning behind why RAZD and CS seem to take non-atheistic-actions on the Plane 2 level regarding "God," however they both take atheistic-actions on the Plane 2 level regarding any other unknown concept.