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Author Topic:   TOE and the Reasons for Doubt
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 11 of 530 (526239)
09-26-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
09-26-2009 1:24 AM


The real reason for doubt
quote:
I hope this is good for a start and hopefully will get you thinking that there is enough doubt in the ToE, to not completly write off the idea of a creator.
While I agree with the things others have said, I want to comment specifically on this sentence.
There's a vast difference between doubting the ToE and believing in a creator. Even if your quote mining were enough to convince me that the ToE is on shaky ground, that doesn't mean I'd believe in a creator by default. What's more, science didn't write off the idea of a creator simply because the ToE came along. Scientists wrote off the idea of a creator because the evidence they found was inconsistent with the idea of a creator.
While it may seem that my point is a bit off topic, I don't think that it is. You proffer a few misguided quotes as the reason you doubt the ToE, but in fact you don't get to the real reason until the last line. The only reason you doubt the ToE is because you think that accepting it makes one write off the idea of a creator. You have no real problem with the idea of the fossil record comprising a massive continuum of life, with millions upon millions of small transitions and a classification system that shows a neatly nested hierarchy. You couldn't care less about mutations or what effect they can have on a population, how quickly they spread or the process of how a beneficial mutation becomes fixed in a population. I'd be willing to bet that you'd be more than willing to accept the idea that organisms compete for scarce resources, and those that compete better are more likely to leave more progeny than those that don't, except that you swallow the lie of a few blinkered and frightened ignoramuses that if you believe those things then you can't believe in a creator.
That's your Reason for Doubt.
And, that's why no amount of evidence in support of the ToE will ever convince you. You've made up your mind and you couldn't care less about the evidence. Instead, for you it's all about trying to figure out a way to reconcile your understanding of the evidence with your foundational belief in a creator. That's why you're content to drink the kool aid from creo web sites, and pass along quotes that have been mined from their context to change the apparent meaning as well as quotes that have been flat out changed to mean the exact opposite of what the speaker actually said. This has nothing to do with the truth to you, but has everything to do with saving your core belief. We could show you a million times, with a million unique examples, that creo websites lie, but you're still going to go back to them for succor. It doesn't matter to you if they lie, because it's not about finding evidence to you, it's about rationalization. It's about finding some reason to doubt the massive amounts of evidence that you know must be out there.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 09-26-2009 1:24 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by themasterdebator, posted 09-26-2009 9:01 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 40 of 530 (526575)
09-28-2009 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
09-28-2009 8:14 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
quote:
There might be transitionals, but the question is; how many are missing, percentage-wise.
Curious.
So, you are willing to accept that there are transitional fossils yet you hold on to your belief that god created it all because we haven't found all the transitionals. This is perhaps one of the most perplexing positions I've ever seen a creationist adopt. Usually, creationists insist that there was no change from one species, genus, family, kind, take your pick. They take an obvious transitional like archeopteryx and say that it's nothing more than a reptile and down play the bird features, or they say it's nothing more than a bird and down play the reptile features. Transitionals must be explained away, because even one is enough to destroy the creationist position that evolution is limited to micro evolution.
So, I'm curious about a couple of things. Why are you willing to accept that transitional fossils do exist when other creationists are not? Why are you giving such significance to the fact that not all transitional fossils have been found?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 09-28-2009 8:14 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by mike the wiz, posted 09-29-2009 7:15 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 517 of 530 (571051)
07-29-2010 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Bolder-dash
07-29-2010 7:14 PM


Re: cell reproduction
What the ID argument says is that you don't know.
Amazingly enough, not only do you not know anything about evolution, but you don't know anything about ID either. What you say may be your argument, but it certainly is not intelligent design's argument.
Oh, BTW, still waiting for one study suggesting the existence of anything requiring a non-materialistic explanation.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 7:14 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 9:18 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 521 of 530 (571060)
07-29-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Bolder-dash
07-29-2010 9:18 PM


Don't go away mad, just go away
Sorry but your posts are getting more desperate and silly. I don't owe you anything, because you really aren't saying anything stimulating or interesting.
Actually, you do. Forum Rule 4 says:
quote:
Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
You've been asked by several people here to provide a cite to the studies that you keep claiming exist. Instead, you've dodged and ducked, and now simply refused.
Seriously, if you're not here to discuss and debate in good faith, why not just leave and stop wasting everyone's time.
The ID movement if you want to cal it that, makes some pretty simple demands. Allow the discussion of all aspects of the ToE in schools, including the strengths and weaknesses of the theory.
Again, you do nothing more here than demonstrate your own ignorance. The ID movement has its own positive theory, of sorts, that it wants to get taught in schools. Read the opinion in Kitzmiller V. Dover if you don't believe me.
But your side continually fights that, like they have with the Academic Freedom bills in Florida schools. They are AGAINST teaching both the strengths AND weaknesses of the theory-even though polls show that 3/4 of all Americans are for this.
What 3/4 of Americans think about science is quite irrelevant. If it's a question about what to teach in science class, it really should be scientists that make that decision, since they are the ones who know what science is. And somewhere in excess of 90% of scientists agree that the ToE is a scientific theory.
So if any side can be said to be stifling science, it appears to be yours, because of your own fear of open discussion.
Right, that's why we have this forum board, where even someone as ill-informed as you can post your opinion. That's why there are all those laws prohibiting any discussion of creo drivel exist, right? No, the only thing we are against is passing religion, and bad religion at that, off as science and spending tax dollars to do it.
Are there any laws against teaching creationism is private schools, even in science class? No. Why not? Because that's not unconstitutional.
You refuse to provide evidence to back up your patently ridiculous assertions. You shovel the same horse manure time and time again, even after others point out why it's horse manure. You don't even have the redeeming quality of being entertaining.
I think it's time for you to leave and let the adults talk for a while, ok Chuckles?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 9:18 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 10:25 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
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