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Author
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Topic: TOE and the Reasons for Doubt
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 3 of 530 (526180)
09-26-2009 2:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
09-26-2009 1:24 AM
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Creation website much?
Peg, tell me honestly please (not that you wouldn't, but meh), you got this from creationist websites, yes? Even after you were told in the Why are there no human apes alive today? thread that some of those quotes are false (by Percy, in Message 102), you still bring them out here. Why do that, Peg? I'm willing to bet those other quotes are false as well. When will you learn that these sites lie to you, Peg? Why is it that you trust them so blindly?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, ,y servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Peg, posted 09-26-2009 1:24 AM | | Peg has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 445 by traste, posted 11-26-2009 2:57 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 21 of 530 (526522)
09-28-2009 8:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
09-28-2009 7:56 AM
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[qs=Peg]im aware of that, but the point is that evolution is said to explain how the
Peg writes: im aware of that, but the point is that evolution is said to explain how the great variety of species developed, albeit slowly, and yet the fossil record does not show the supposed changes taking place. It shows fully formed and functioning creatures as opposed to anything in its development stage.
Of course they are fully developed animals. There is no "development stage" as evolution is not a ladder that has a certain point when development stops. Life is always evolving. And stop using those quotemines! I'll leave Archaeopteryx, since I don't know enough about it. About your botanist quote. I think he's talking about plant fossils here, which, as far as I know, are indeed quite rare.
i dont have a problem with this example, its not in contention.
So, you accept evolution? You're confusing me.
The salamanders are still salamanders, perhaps a different type of salamander, but a salamander nonetheless.
Of course they are. As you wrote yourself:
Peg writes: Melindoor writes: Of course animals and plants reproduce according to their species!! Otherwise they wouldn't be species! Evolution doesn't say that a dog will give birth to a cat, or any other creature but a dog.
im aware of that...
Yet now you say this? Are you aware of it or not?
Mutations supposedly involved in evolution are small accidental changes that accumulate over a long period of time
And acted upon by natural selection.
im not sure these fish qualify, if they do, i dont see how.
Fish? Salamanders aren't fish, Peg. The finches I'll leave again to someone else.
thats not entirely true We could not have been created if we evolved. Its one or the other.
Really? God could not have guided evolution? So, he's not omnipotent?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Peg, posted 09-28-2009 7:56 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by Peg, posted 09-28-2009 8:18 PM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Re: peg, your understanding is flawed
mike the wiz writes: In reality, evolution is the only support for atheism, which is why it is dogmatically defended.
Nonsense. I was an atheist long before I even understood evolution (whis was when I got some of it in highschool when I was 14 or so).
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 09-28-2009 8:52 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 53 of 530 (526668)
09-29-2009 12:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by Peg
09-28-2009 8:18 PM
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Re: [qs=Peg]im aware of that, but the point is that evolution is said to explain how the
Peg writes: the salamanders interbred to much that the genes become narrowed down so much that these ones could no longer breed with the other ones.
Really? And the study which shows this to be the case can be found where?
i believe this is more about genetics then evolution, but if you want to call it evolution then go ahead. The salamanders are still salamanders.
Evolution is genetics (well, sort of). Of course they are still salamanders. This is exactly what the theory of evolution says they will be.
donkeys horses and mules are another example of how two of the species can breed to a point but no further. They are all still equine though.
Yes, exactly as the theory of evolution predicts.
no, because he's a God of Order, not of disorder.
When I look at the universe, I see a lot of disorder.
If he wasnt involved the creation of the great variety of species on earth, then he cant lay claim to being the creator of them. Yet he does lay claim to being the creator of them. So either he did create them, or he didnt.
He did. Using evolution (not my personal belief, but a way in which he could've done it).
its one or the other.
It's both. God guided/manipulated evolution, so that we would be the end result.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by Peg, posted 09-28-2009 8:18 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Dr Adequate writes: The evidence that we see, says the person who thinks that hyraxes are "fox-like".
And that salamanders are fish.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2009 9:47 PM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 58 of 530 (526690)
09-29-2009 3:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Peg
09-29-2009 3:24 AM
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Peg writes: but thats exactly what the ToE is...its about slow undirected change as opposed to purposful design.
I think this has been explained to you before, but here we go again. Evolution is not undirected, it is directed by natural selection.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Peg, posted 09-29-2009 3:24 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 88 of 530 (526770)
09-29-2009 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Peg
09-29-2009 9:23 AM
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Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Peg writes: wouldnt put australopithecus as a transitional link either. It has a skull that differs from humans with a much smaller brain capacity Some say that its skull is simiannot human. They are more like liviing living monkeys and apes then us. and that goes for Lucy too. Robert Jastrow in the 1981 book The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Unverse, says: This brain was not large in absolute size; it was a third the size of a human brain. even New Scientist said that Lucys skull was very similar to a chimpanzees.
That's the point of a transitional, Peg. It can't be that you really don't understand all this, can it?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Peg, posted 09-29-2009 9:23 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Peg, posted 09-30-2009 8:52 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 98 of 530 (526793)
09-29-2009 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
09-29-2009 9:56 AM
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Re: Inconsistent Worldview?
Peg writes: greyseal writes: I understand I cannot ask you to actual give a rebuttal to a lifetime of work by a real scientist, but at least you should have the decency not to pretend it doesn't exist. You can say you don't like it (and we'd like to know why) but you can't say it doesn't exist.
he became convinced of evolution after a mere 5 weeks on the golapogas islands, that is not much time to truly research your subject. How much evidence did he have back then? very little if any. the Encyclopaedia Britannica basically says that what he observed was that living things on the Galapagos were similar to those in South American and therefore must not have being created on the Galapagos. also he noted that over the years, those animals changed from their mainland cousins. This reinforced his belief that plants and animals keep changing little by little, so that eventually they evolve into entirely different forms of life.
quote:
The World Book Encyclopedia states: Much evidence of evolution comes from plants and animals that live on islands far from continents. The Galapagos Islands, for example have 26 kinds of land birds, all resembling species found in western South America. But 23 of these species seem to have changed since they reached the islands, for the Galapagos birds are distinct species. Comparable differences are shown by lizards and tortoises, of which there were 11 species on as many different islands. They apparently developed there because of changes that took place after their ancestors drifted from the mainland of South America.
this is the theory he proposed in just 5 weeks!
First of all, he didn't propose his theory after those five weeks on the galapagos, second, he had, by your own admission, evidence for it.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Peg, posted 09-29-2009 9:56 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 111 of 530 (527075)
09-30-2009 9:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Peg
09-30-2009 8:52 AM
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Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Peg writes: so are you now saying that transitional fossils dont show evolutionary changes?
No... How did you get to that conclusion? Please, do tell me, I'm trying to understand the way you think. What I meant by that is that what you wrote about Australopithecus, is exactly why we're calling it a transitional. It has many "ape" features, just not quite, and some "human" features.
isnt it the fossil record that is supposed to be the proof of change...are you saying translitionals dont show it??
No... Again, how did you come to that conclusion? What you wrote about Australopithecus is the way we would normally describe a transitional, with some feautes of one species (just not quite) and some of another.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Peg, posted 09-30-2009 8:52 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 131 of 530 (527656)
10-02-2009 1:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Peg
10-02-2009 12:42 AM
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Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes: Did you read about these scientits research and see why they are led to conclude that darwinian evolution is not factual?
It would be better if you produced the actual research that made them doubt it, rather then statements of them saying they've done research that makes them doubt evolution. I could make a statement that I've done research which makes me not believe in god. Would you now start to doubt god, Peg?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Peg, posted 10-02-2009 12:42 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 196 of 530 (528183)
10-05-2009 4:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 194 by Peg
10-05-2009 4:16 AM
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Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes: Evidence that mutations do not produce viable new species....
And evidence that they do produce viable new species? (Think nylon bacteria, for example)
Now if you think about the sheer complexity of DNA, you cant possibly imagine that such a structure could come into existence without direction and intelligence.
Wow, so you just admitted that your whole argument is one from personal incredulity. Just becuase you can't imagine it happening without a creator, doesn't mean it actually can't, Peg.
Five histones are involved in DNA (histones are thought to be involved in governing the activity of genes). The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20/100
1 in 0.2? So it will happen 5 times? I wouldn't call those impossible odds, to be honest. (yes, you probably didn;t mean it like that, before you explain what you did mean, please also provide the calculation, loose numbers are meaningless)
This fact makes the ToE impossible for without the genetic code to begin reproduction, there can be no material for natural selection to select.
But we have DNA. Since by your own admission, DNA exists, saying that we have to doubt evolution because we need DNA for it, is kinda stupid.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 194 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 4:16 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 202 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 6:54 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 197 of 530 (528184)
10-05-2009 4:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 195 by Peg
10-05-2009 4:37 AM
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Peg writes: he did say that nature gives the 'appearance of design'
Yes, appearance, meaning it looks like it, but it isn't so... How hard can this be?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 195 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 4:37 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 205 of 530 (528206)
10-05-2009 7:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 202 by Peg
10-05-2009 6:54 AM
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Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes: yeah i might be stupid in the eyes of someone who believes in evolution
Perhaps. This however has nothing to do with my position. You argued that one of the reasons one could cite for doubting evolution, was the lack of genetic material, when, only one or two sentences before, you talk about that very genetic material. So, when we have genetic material, citing the lack of it as a doubt for evolution is completely nonsensical, whether you're a creationist or not.
but that is not the issue of this thread...the reasons for doubt are
Yes, and this is not one of these reasons. In fact it could be argued from your "logic" that evolution can't be doubted, as we have the genetic material for it.
that said, there are many reasons to doubt evolution and those doubts dont only come from people like me who believe in creation.
Yes, yes they do. I don't know anyone who doesn't believe in a creator and that has studied evolution, that doubts evolution.
they come from the mouths of the evolutionists themselves...the only difference is they ignore them whereas others do not.
We ignore ourselves? Would you be so kind as to explain how that is possible? Also, could you give some examples of people who don't believe in a creator, are biologists, and doubt evolution? And this better be more than one or two examples as well, since there are hundreds of thousands taht don't doubt evolution, and some of them even believe in a creator.
I dont get my quotes from creationist websites btw...i use my own reference book entitled 'Life-How did it get here? By evolution or creation' published by the WT org. I dont think its avail online but if you want one you could send them an email and they'll send you one for free.
That's just as bad as creationist sites then. And probably filled with the same rubbish as the quotes are anything to go by.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 202 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 6:54 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 207 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 7:39 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 209 of 530 (528210)
10-05-2009 7:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 207 by Peg
10-05-2009 7:39 AM
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Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes: please provide the msg where i stated this and i'll have a look at it again...it doesnt sound like what i said at all.
Gladly. It's about your Message 194 where you first talk about DNA:
Peg writes: Now if you think about the sheer complexity of DNA, you cant possibly imagine that such a structure could come into existence without direction and intelligence. Five histones are involved in DNA (histones are thought to be involved in governing the activity of genes). The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20/100
(You also have that weird statistic of 1 in 0.2 there, meaning a certainty of 5 will happen) Then you say this:
Peg writes: And without the genetic code, there can be no reproduction in the first place. This fact makes the ToE impossible for without the genetic code to begin reproduction, there can be no material for natural selection to select. But there is genetic material, as you yourself have said. Like I said, completely illogical.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 7:39 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 212 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:28 AM | | Huntard has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Message 219 of 530 (528228)
10-05-2009 8:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 212 by Peg
10-05-2009 8:28 AM
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Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes: ok so now your quote mining me to teach me a lesson are you? lol
I didn't quotemine you. You directly said evolution was impossible without genetic material, when not two sentences before you were talking about that very genetic material.
I think you know what i was saying...but to put it simply, what came first, the DNA or the protein.
Completely irrelevant for evolution.
Both are needed for the genes to function and Proteins depend on DNA for their formation. But DNA cannot form without pre-existing protein.
Again, completely irrelevant for evolution. We have the material now, and it evolves.
so how could they have evolved without direction?
Irelevant. It is here now, and it is evolving.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 212 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:28 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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