Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
98 online now:
xongsmith (1 member, 97 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,046 Year: 5,158/6,534 Month: 1/577 Week: 69/135 Day: 0/1 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Living fossils expose evolution
mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 35 of 416 (527036)
09-30-2009 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
09-29-2009 8:25 PM


Hi Calypsis4,

Welcome to EvC!

The problem with the "living fossil" argument is that it commits a logical fallacy called a strawman. The ToE doesn't state that all organisms must evolve, so assuming the position that they must isn't arguing against evolutionary theory, but a parody of it.

This is all that need be said, arguing about what is & isn't the same as this or that fossil is meaningless because nothing is demonstrated or detracted from the ToE even if they are the same.

Mark

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Calypsis4, posted 09-29-2009 8:25 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 9:22 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 153 of 416 (527240)
09-30-2009 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 9:22 AM


Calypsis4,

No it is not a strawman. I can literally post hundreds of examples of the non-evolution of living organisms all day for about two weeks.

Yes, it is a strawman. I repeat, the ToE does not state things "must" evolve, therefore having an organism alive today identical to a fossil one doesn't contradict the ToE.

So knock yourself out, post as many examples of non-evolution as you like, it's a strawman because the thing you argue against doesn't take the position that non-evolution can't occur. You are posting examples of things that don't contradict the ToE. Ergo, you have found nothing in the "living fossil" argument that defeats the ToE. OK?

There are no transitional forms between them and they all appear abruptly in the fossil record.

This isn't a part of your original argument, which relates to living fossils.

But for the record, how much of the earths surface that bears fossiliferous rocks of say 100-110 million years ago is available to palaeontologists, as a percentage? It's sub 1%, Calypsis. That means that anything that lived & evolved on the earth in that time has something like a 99% chance of not being found by palaeontologists purely by dint of not existing as fossils hanging around on the surface waiting for someone to walk by.

Add that to all the other reasons that things don't get fossilised for & we're lucky to have anything at all. The upshot is that gaps in the fossil record are pretty much guaranteed.

Yet we do have lots of transitional fossils, just like the ToE says we should.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 9:22 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 4:25 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(2)
Message 175 of 416 (527269)
09-30-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 4:25 PM


Calypsis,

Pretend. That's all you're doing. How convenient to claim evolutionary changes with some...even fantastic change like ape-like creatures to modern man, and yet no changes in so many other organisms. Neat. Maybe the name 'evolution' should be changed to 'flexilution'. So you are a 'flexilutionist'!

I'm not pretending, when good body plans & adaptations are hit upon stabilising selection ensures change doen't happen. But this is immaterial because the ToE simply doesn't state change must happen, therefore change not happening doesn't challenge the ToE.

You have commited a logical fallacy & your argument is rendered moot. Deal with it.

And I am going to convert some people doing it too just like I have in many other places.

A science teacher? "Convert"? Did you let slip your real motivation?

Go ahead, I like pretty pictures, really, I do, but that's not going to convince anyone that your logically fallacious argument is actually a valid argument.

Your argument meets the standard met by the logical fallacy; straw man, it's just, well, true. All you seem to be interested in is "converting" people to your position rather than providing a logically sound argument for doing so. This suspiciously sounds like it is you who are emotionally wedded to you position, not I.

Tell me, why so strident in your position that logic can be left by the wayside. Again I note you allege to be a science teacher. Sounds awfully suspiciously like religious motivation rather than scientific enquiry through a logically sound framework, you have to concede.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 4:25 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 4:56 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 179 of 416 (527276)
09-30-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 4:53 PM


Re: Change in the fossil record
Calypsis,

For instance: concerning Australopithecus, Dr. Charles Oxnard, professor of anatomy at the University of Chicago did what was perhaps the most thorough job of examining australopithecus and stated clearly that the specimen was not related to anything living today.

He's an evolutionist so I very much doubt he said that. Secondly, where did you learn he did the "most thorough job?" Thirdly, he did this in the 1970's, before Lucy was discovered, lots more data has been found since them.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 4:53 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 180 of 416 (527278)
09-30-2009 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 4:56 PM


Calypsis,

And what are your motivations for being here?

I enjoy it.

I assume that you concede that your argument is a strawman, since you didn't comment on the substance of my argument?

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 4:56 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 6:35 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(2)
Message 212 of 416 (527323)
09-30-2009 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 6:35 PM


Calypsis,

Far from being a 'straw man' it can be more likened unto the atomic bomb on evolution.

No, it isn't an atomic bomb on evolution because evolution (are you paying attention? I only ask because I keep having to repeat myself) does not state morphological change must happen. For your argument to be true evolutionary theory must state this, but it doesn't. In other words you are attacking a position that is not a position of the ToE. This is what a straw man logical fallacy is. What you have done is a textbook example of one.

If you think it isn't the logical fallacy I've outlined then feel free to point out why I'm wrong. But we're on solid ground as to what is & isn't a strawman here at EvC, 'cos we have to point it out a lot to creationists.

Other than that, please deal in a substantial way to the charge or concede.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 6:35 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 260 of 416 (527446)
10-01-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 11:20 AM


Re: The fossil record: the geologic column
Calypsis,

Please can you address the charge of your argument being a strawman with something more than "no it isn't", or concede the point, please.

Thanks,

Mark


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 11:20 AM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 280 of 416 (527504)
10-01-2009 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 1:08 PM


Re: Teenage bats ripping up the town
Calypsis,

Now we're moving on to something else.

Giving up I see. I'll take this as a concession that you can't defend the charge that your argument is a strawman.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 1:08 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 5:24 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 291 of 416 (527661)
10-02-2009 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 5:24 PM


Calypsis fails to respond substantively....
Calyspsis,

Another brave statement. You would say that if I remained here for another week.

Another post where you refuse to deal with your arguments illogic, so there's nothing brave about my statement, Calypsis. You simply can't defend your argument, so you don't. You do what every creationist does & stick your fingers in your ears & clamp your eyes shut tight, just pretending you haven't committed a logical fallacy despite being shown clearly that it meets the standard of a given fallacy & therefore is a fallacious argument.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 5:24 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 299 of 416 (527709)
10-02-2009 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Calypsis4
10-02-2009 10:56 AM


Re: Atomic bombs?
Boy you're fast - just in time! Thanks for noticing. --Admin

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Add moderator comment.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Calypsis4, posted 10-02-2009 10:56 AM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 309 of 416 (527747)
10-02-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Calypsis4
10-02-2009 12:33 PM


Calypsis,

Excuse me? Oh, about 40 examples I have given on this website and another 150 I have not posted yet.

But as you have learned this is a logically fallacious argument so the "evidence" is at best examples of stasis which doesn't contradict the ToE one iota, & therefore isn't evidence against evolution. What exactly don't you understand?

Now, once again I invite you to defend with something more than "no it's not" the charge that your argument commits the logical fallacy of "strawman", which renders your argument logically moot.

Mark

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Calypsis4, posted 10-02-2009 12:33 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4469 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 406 of 416 (528148)
10-04-2009 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Calypsis4
10-04-2009 3:04 PM


Summation
Calypsis' argument has failed because it is logically fallacious. It commits the strawman fallacy, specifically it assumes evolutionary theory states morphological change must happen, then attacks that false proposition.

A logically fallacious argument is moot.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Calypsis4, posted 10-04-2009 3:04 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2009 8:10 PM mark24 has taken no action

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022