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Author Topic:   Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 76 of 157 (529648)
10-09-2009 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by PaulK
10-09-2009 9:56 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
How do you reconcile that idea with the fact that Daniel 8 is about the "time of the end" ?
which time of the end?
that term 'time of the end' refers to a time period marking the conclusion of a system of things and culminating in its destruction. That could be any time and any event. Alexander the great experienced a 'time of the end'
as did the people of Noahs day and likewise did the jewish system in 70ce....added to that the Messiah experienced a 'time of the end' when he was also put to death
Daniel uses that same expression when he is explaining the dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 2:28 "However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar what is to occur in the final part of the days. Your dream and the visions of your head upon your bedthis it is:"
its an expression signifying the end of something that does not only apply to one specific event is what i'm saying.
Another example where a similar expression is used is when Jacob explains to his 12 sons what will befall them.
quote:
Genesis 49:1 Later on Jacob called his sons and said: Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. 2Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father.
I should just ask you how you understand 'end of time' to mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 9:56 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 3:23 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 77 of 157 (529649)
10-09-2009 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Jazzns
10-09-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Getting into Daniel
Jazzns writes:
I have not limited myself to Daniel 11 and in fact expressly mentioned earlier chapters as foreshadowing.
thats fine, however the whole book of Daniel is not pointing to just one event...this is why i asked earlier specifically which part of Daniel are you asking about
there are different events and different times being prophecied. They may appear to be 1 prophecy, but it is not one prophecy...its a culmination of many.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Jazzns, posted 10-09-2009 6:14 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 11:51 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 78 of 157 (529671)
10-10-2009 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Peg
10-09-2009 11:35 PM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
which time of the end?
It just says "the time of the end". If there are more than one "times of the end" in Daniel, it is down to the author of Daniel to distinguish between them.
quote:
hat term 'time of the end' refers to a time period marking the conclusion of a system of things and culminating in its destruction. That could be any time and any event. Alexander the great experienced a 'time of the end'
as did the people of Noahs day and likewise did the jewish system in 70ce....added to that the Messiah experienced a 'time of the end' when he was also put to death
Is that your personal opinion or something that can be supported ? i.e. does the author of Daniel use that phrase for any of your examples ? DO the authors of other Biblical books ?
quote:
Daniel uses that same expression when he is explaining the dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 2:28 "However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb‧u‧chad‧nez′zar what is to occur in the final part of the days. Your dream and the visions of your head upon your bedthis it is:"
But there is no reason to think that this refers to a different "time of the end" from Daniel 8 (I'm pretty sure that it IS the same time).
quote:
Another example where a similar expression is used is when Jacob explains to his 12 sons what will befall them.
quote:
Genesis 49:1 Later on Jacob called his sons and said: Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. 2 Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father.

Aside from Genesis 49:10 the whole prophecy is pretty general (and 49:10 could easily be intended to refer to the same sort of "end time" as Daniel had in mind).
quote:
I should just ask you how you understand 'end of time' to mean.
I would think that Daniel 2 explains what the author of Daniel had in mind. God would establish an eternal kingdom on Earth which would destroy all competing empires and dominate the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 11:35 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 5:18 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 79 of 157 (529689)
10-10-2009 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by PaulK
10-10-2009 3:23 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
It just says "the time of the end". If there are more than one "times of the end" in Daniel, it is down to the author of Daniel to distinguish between them.
yes that could be a little difficult considering he didnt undertsand what he was writing.
quote:
Daniel 12:8Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?
9And he went on to say: Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end
PaulK writes:
Is that your personal opinion or something that can be supported ? i.e. does the author of Daniel use that phrase for any of your examples ? DO the authors of other Biblical books ?
yes there are later bible writers who spoke about the 'end times' or 'last days'
2Tim 3:1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here
Jerimiah 23:20 "...In the final part of the days YOU people will give YOUR consideration to it with understanding
Jude 17As for YOU, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18how they used to say to YOU: In the last time there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things.
Matt 24:3 3While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things? the word 'conclusion' here is synteleias meaning joint end/combination end/ending together.
So as these 'last days' or 'end of the system' or 'end times' was spoken of by Jesus and his apostles, its clear that the 'end' didnt happen at an earlier time. It was still coming in their day.
And the evidence is that it still hasnt come yet...so lets say Daniels prophecy is true and the end is still coming, then it could not have already come. Or alternatively, none of Daniels prophecy is true and everything he wrote was forged later...or was just a coincidence.
PaulK writes:
I would think that Daniel 2 explains what the author of Daniel had in mind. God would establish an eternal kingdom on Earth which would destroy all competing empires and dominate the world.
Yes this is how i understand it too. But that has not yet happned so obviously Daniel 2:44 has not yet come to pass. It is still future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 3:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 5:34 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 157 (529696)
10-10-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peg
10-10-2009 5:18 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
yes that could be a little difficult considering he didnt undertsand what he was writing.
I think that you are reading too much into 12:8 - in context it clearly refers to the words spoken by the two figures in 12:6-7 and nothing else.
quote:
yes there are later bible writers who spoke about the 'end times' or 'last days'
I asked if there were any that used it in your sense. And you haven't one clear example. In fact all of them seem to mean the same thing as Daniel.
quote:
Yes this is how i understand it too. But that has not yet happned so obviously Daniel 2:44 has not yet come to pass. It is still future.
Of course this is - again - a concern external to the text of Daniel. There seems to be no reason within the test to assume that the author of Daniel had two or more different "end times" in mind or that he (or any other Biblical author) used "end times" in the sense you suggested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 5:18 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 5:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 81 of 157 (529699)
10-10-2009 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
10-10-2009 5:34 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
I asked if there were any that used it in your sense. And you haven't one clear example. In fact all of them seem to mean the same thing as Daniel.
but that was the point...if later writers spoke about the 'end times' as something coming in the future, how can we apply Daniels 'end times' to an earlier period?
You said that the 'end times' in Danile related to the Macabeean period and Antiochus IV? However im showing you that later bible writers spoke about the 'end times' as something in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 5:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 6:07 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 82 of 157 (529700)
10-10-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Peg
10-10-2009 5:56 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
but that was the point...if later writers spoke about the 'end times' as something coming in the future, how can we apply Daniels 'end times' to an earlier period?
So you weren't even trying to answer my question ? And are you really saying that the whole basis for your interpretation of "time of the end" is that you assume that Daniel couldn't have meant it in the same way that the other Biblical authors meant it ?
quote:
You said that the 'end times' in Danile related to the Macabeean period and Antiochus IV? However im showing you that later bible writers spoke about the 'end times' as something in the future.
And it is clear that Daniel 8 did mean that. However, it is not at all clear that your proposed interpretation has any sound basis at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 5:56 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 8:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 83 of 157 (529725)
10-10-2009 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by PaulK
10-10-2009 6:07 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
thats no problem
i did say at the outset that this was 'one' interpretation
you dont have to believe it...many do though.
As i said previously, Jesus said that Daniels words about the 'desolation' was still coming. This is why the jewish interpretation of Daniel could not have been correct.
the jews werent the best at interpreting their own scriptures...especially considering they did not even recognise their messiah when he showed up. They could not see how he fulfilled the prophecies spoken in Isaiah and nor were they able to use Daniels 70weeks prophecy to calculate the time of his arrival.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 6:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 10:24 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 84 of 157 (529743)
10-10-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Peg
10-10-2009 8:48 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
As i said previously, Jesus said that Daniels words about the 'desolation' was still coming. This is why the jewish interpretation of Daniel could not have been correct.
It's a reason based on other beliefs - and without any foundation in the actual text of Daniel.
I take the view that each book of the Bible should be interpreted on it's own terms - instead of being forced into a theology which might not fit.
quote:
he jews werent the best at interpreting their own scriptures...especially considering they did not even recognise their messiah when he showed up. They could not see how he fulfilled the prophecies spoken in Isaiah and nor were they able to use Daniels 70weeks prophecy to calculate the time of his arrival.
It is far from certain that your interpretations of those texts are any better. Indeed the 70 weeks can only be seen to point to Jesus by fitting the data to the conclusion (in my view they, too point to the time of Antiochus IV) - the more so since the 70th week does not easily fit with Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 8:48 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 8:57 PM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 157 (529863)
10-10-2009 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
10-10-2009 10:24 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
It is far from certain that your interpretations of those texts are any better. Indeed the 70 weeks can only be seen to point to Jesus by fitting the data to the conclusion (in my view they, too point to the time of Antiochus IV) - the more so since the 70th week does not easily fit with Jesus.
ok so what reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2009 10:24 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2009 3:49 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 86 of 157 (529917)
10-11-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
10-10-2009 8:57 PM


Re: Getting into Daniel
If we look at the prophecy for the 70th week, if Jesus is the Messiah who will be "cut off and have nothing", after the 69th week. All the following events have to happen in the next 7 years. The latest likely date for the crucifxion is 33 AD, so everything else has to have happened by 40 AD.
IN the years of Antiochus' rule, three High Priests (all of whom qualify as "messiahs") had problems.
Onias, perhaps the most likely candidate, was deposed by Antiochus and later murdered - probably at the orders of the then High Priest Menelaus in 170 BC.
Jason, who had bribed Antiochus to take the position was replaced when Menelaus offered
a larger bribe.
Menelaus was driven into exile when Jason revolted to take the position back in 168 BC.
The next event is that the "Prince of the People who is to come" must attack the city.
Following Jason's revolt, Antiochus came with an army to Jerusalem and stormed the city. The Temple was looted and many people were killed (2 Maccabees).
In Jesus' time - nothing.
The Prince must make a "firm covenant with many" but in "the middle of the week" must stop the sacrifices and set up the "Abomination that causes desolation".
Following his conquest of the city, Antiochus appointed new governors, and they built up the city again.
However, later in 167 BC, Antiochus banned Judaism and converted the Temple to the worship of Zeus. If we use the murder of Onaias as the end of the 69th week this would be "in the middle of the week".
In Jesus' time - nothing.
The 70th week, does fit the time of Antiochus, and does not fit the time of Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Peg, posted 10-10-2009 8:57 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Peg, posted 10-11-2009 4:37 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 87 of 157 (529919)
10-11-2009 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by PaulK
10-11-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
If we look at the prophecy for the 70th week, if Jesus is the Messiah who will be "cut off and have nothing", after the 69th week. All the following events have to happen in the next 7 years.
ah ok I see where you are coming from.
_____________________________________________________________
Daniel 9:24There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city....And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off
__________________________________________________________________
before i go on i need to know when you understand the time of the 70 weeks began. the prophecy says "from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild jerusalem"
what date do you have for when this 'word' went forth...for this is when the 70 weeks must begin.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2009 3:49 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2009 5:14 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 88 of 157 (529921)
10-11-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peg
10-11-2009 4:37 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
before i go on i need to know when you understand the time of the 70 weeks began. the prophecy says "from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild jerusalem"
what date do you have for when this 'word' went forth...for this is when the 70 weeks must be
I will state in advance that I do not believe that the author of Daniel got the timeline correct.
However, the fact is that the start date is incredibly uncertain. There are a number of supposed start dates, and working out which is intended must rely on the interpretation of the rest of the text. My personal view, following the Masoretic text is that the first messiah, who comes after the first 7 weeks is Cyrus and therefore the author of Daniel believed the "word" to be a pre-exilic prophecy of a return.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Peg, posted 10-11-2009 4:37 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Peg, posted 10-11-2009 5:28 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 89 of 157 (529923)
10-11-2009 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by PaulK
10-11-2009 5:14 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
However, the fact is that the start date is incredibly uncertain. There are a number of supposed start dates, and working out which is intended must rely on the interpretation of the rest of the text. My personal view, following the Masoretic text is that the first messiah, who comes after the first 7 weeks is Cyrus and therefore the author of Daniel believed the "word" to be a pre-exilic prophecy of a return.
Do you know what the event "from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" is
do you know who gave that word and when?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2009 5:14 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2009 5:45 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 90 of 157 (529924)
10-11-2009 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Peg
10-11-2009 5:28 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
Do you know what the event "from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" is
do you know who gave that word and when?
I just told you, nobody knows. Isaiah 49:14-21 is possible (although it was almost certainly written after the exile, the author of Daniel probably attributed it to the original Isaiah).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Peg, posted 10-11-2009 5:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 10-11-2009 6:59 AM PaulK has replied

  
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