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Member (Idle past 4798 days) Posts: 400 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why'd you do it that way, God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:For a theist (neither an atheist or a deist) a "naturalistic process" is simply the normal way that God works in His universe. A "supernatural process" is an unusual, abnormal way for Him to work. So why shouldn't God use His normal processes to create the universe? I don't see an a priori reason that either one would be strongly preferred over the other. Here aret two reasons/advantages for God to use natural processes in creation:1) Using "naturalistic processes" helps to establish them as "normal," and to underscore God's consistency and reliability as He runs His universe. 2) The vast time periods used for "gradual naturalistic processes" convey a similar message to vast size of the universe. As David said in Psalm 8, this reveals to us our insignificance. We are insignificant in the vast size of the cosmos, and likewise we are insignificant in the vast history of the cosmos. Our significance comes from God, not from our spatial or temporal place in the universe.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Yes, this version of God is not biblical. You are describing the god of Deism. Biblical Christianity has no room for the concept of the universe as a "machine." The universe, and its functioning, are sustained instant-by-instant by the God who created them. quote:What you say is true regarding the death of man only. There is no biblical or theological basis to extend this to animals or plants. In fact, God is praised for feeding animals to the carnivores that He created (Ps 109, Job 38-42).
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Exegetically, Paul was speaking only of man here, not of plants or animals. This is quite clear from the context and argument of Rom 5 (see, e.g., v. 14). "World" here refers only to the human race (as in Jn 3:16). Paul is setting up an analogy: sin and death came through the original Adam; grace and life come through the New Adam (Christ). If you try to interpret Rom 5:12 to include death of animals, then you would have to conclude that Jesus also offers eternal life to animals! quote:Rom 8 is difficult to interpret, and I'm not sure what the best interpretation is. I am sure that most readers bring lots of unexamined presuppositions to the text. For example, 8:20 says that God subjected the creation to futility, but what does this mean? How much of the cosmos is in view by Paul here? (Could he again be only referring to man?) When did God do this--at the original time of creation? at the Fall? How did God do this--by changing the structure of the creation? by allowing man to wreck it by being a poor steward of creation? All of these seem plausible.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:"World" in both Jn 3:16 and Rom 5:12 is kosmos. This has a wide range of meanings; the actual meaning must be determined from context.quote:I thought about this as soon as I had posted my post. The thing would be to check in the original language the word 'world'. I don't have a greek bible however (internet site?) quote:Can you show us where the Bible teaches this? I see it teaching something very different. Rather than restoring the earth to its "pre-fall state," God will completely destroy the present creation and make an entirely new, different, and better heaven and earth. This is analogous to personal salvation; God does not restore us to the "pre-fall state" of Adam and Eve, but to an entirely new, different, and better state. quote:I'm not sure how you infer (human) cancer from animal death. And it seems that you are reading your own preconceptions into "very good." God's created order is presented as something good in Ps 109 and Job 38-42 yet includes animal death. quote:Again, you are eisegetically reading your own ideas into "very good." The Hebrew says "very good," not "perfect," even though they had words for "perfect". quote:False. Nearly all conservative Bible scholars from the early to mid-1800s thru the mid-1900s believed that the earth was old and that animals had died before man was here. These scholars included Scofield, Spurgeon, Barnhouse, Ironside, Unger, J Vernon McGee, and many, many others who did not accept the ToE as "fact."
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Only if you are doing eisegesis. The context unambiguously refers only to humans. Animals are not addressed in Rom 5. quote:No, it is not a restoration. It is instead a replacement. quote:Oops, typo! I meant Ps 104. Ps 104:20-22 writes:
You make it dark and night comes,during which all the beasts of the forest prowl around. The lions roar for prey, seeking their food from God. When the sun rises, they withdraw and sleep in their dens. Job 38:39-41 writes: Do you hunt prey for the lioness,and satisfy the appetite of the lions, when they crouch in their dens, when they wait in ambush in the thicket? Who prepares prey for the raven, when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food? quote:You seem to have the tail wagging the dog here. Evidence for an old earth (and animal death) was seen long before Darwin. This was popularized by James Hutton, and was seen as consistent with conservative Christianity before Darwin wrote (see e.g. Thomas Chalmers and William Buckland). Darwin's views were based largely on Lyell's geology, which was in turn based on Hutton's.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Our knowledge of naturalistic processes keeps improving, of course. But even the ancients had some knowledge of natural processes. Job (probably the earliest-written book of the Bible) describes the natural process of the water cycle in chapter 36.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2121 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I wrote:
We are insignificant in the vast size of the cosmos, and likewise we are insignificant in the vast history of the cosmos.
You replied:
quote:Perhaps I wasn't clear. Take another look at Psalm 8: Psalm 8:3-4, NET writes:
David's point is that on our own, in light of the cosmos, we are insignificant. Our significance derives from nothing inherent in ourselves or from our place in the cosmos, but from God Himself. God has placed us in a position of authority over all the rest of creation, not because we somehow "deserve" it, but because He is gracious:
When I look up at the heavens, which your fingers made, and see the moon and the stars, which you set in place, of what importance is the human race, that you should notice them? Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them?Psalm 8:5-6, NET writes:
You grant mankind honor and majesty; you appoint them to rule over your creation; you have placed everything under their authority ...
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