If the designer is outside of time and caused time and matter to come into existence then He is not bounded by time nor composed of physical matter.At some point something has to be self-existing.
Ahhh...but now you are speaking of something existing before existence that is not bound by our physical laws. It's own existence is something which we can never possibly comprehend because it doesn't exist in our own knowable universe.
I see your problem with presenting evidence for this so-called designer. The problem is that you can learn nothing of the designer itself if the designer is not bound to the same laws which govern our universe. You can deduce nothing concrete about this designer because the first rule abut this designer is that there are no rules...for it at least. Therefore, nothing at all that we discover about the natural world can be attributed to the designer in any meaningful way because how can we possibly fathom its meaning?
And that's when we get into theology...god is mysterious and all of that crap. Well...that's a bore, isn't it? Why even bother to try to learn if it is given that we can't possibly fathom the mystery?
You can't really believe that everything came from absolutely nothing? That to me is thoroughly illogical default position.
But you believe that the thing(s) which "created" all of this everything came from nothing (or always existed...um...before time, I mean)? This thing which is so mind-boggingly powerful that it created this immense, mind-boggling universe came from nothing (or always existed...um...before time, I mean)?
If you're shooting for the "it is soooooo complex and wonderful and way too big for me to begin to comprehend that is has to have been designed" argument but then you are proposing a being that has to have created it and, thus, must be even more complex and wonderful and big and offering nothing to explain that, then it is one big fail.
There must be an original cause.
At the very least, there are two possibilities, everything came from nothing or something caused everything.
Indeed. But what caused that something? Do you not see it yet? The inherent flaw in the designer argument?
The organization and complexity of life points to the latter as a more logical default position. Certainly excluding it from possibility simply because you have not seen the original cause is biased philisophical reasoning.
Why does it point to the latter? That is what you have failed to argue throughout many threads. Why? People can assert things all day long (and many others will believe them!) but until you follow the evidence all the way down and can explain how or why to at least some rational extent, then it is not an argument worth listening to and definitely not worth teaching in a classroom.
Even more importantly, how could the designer argument possibly advance our knowledge of life and the universe?
For example, let's say that every science class in the world now admits ID. What now? What will be taught? How will it be different from what is now taught except to say "OK kids this is what happened and (insert ID mascot here) did it."
See...I don't think that is all you guys really want taught, which is why you cannot come up with any positive evidence for design. If that was it, then it could be taught at home, but this is a battle for souls, not truth. Otherwise, you would have creation scientists scrambling to find out the truth like all the other scientists. But all you have are lies and PR and armies of internet avengers equipped with the lies and half-truths and exaggerations and strawmen that we see day in and day out.
If you wish to prove any of this wrong, please, please come forward with some positive evidence for any form of ID. We are all still waiting.
"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -
The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
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