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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 62 of 438 (797820)
01-27-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
01-27-2017 10:57 AM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.

I see no evidence of this in the story.

Floods happen. Do you blame God for droughts? Hurricanes? Auto accidents?

Phat, sorry but that is simply a dishonest answer. In the story the God character specifically says that he will cause the flood.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 10:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 7:05 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 64 of 438 (797848)
01-28-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
01-27-2017 7:05 PM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:

But Noah trusted God...he was not trying to save himself from God....only from the flood...im sure he prayed while on the boat.

He was trying to save himself from the genocide that the God character was committing.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 69 of 438 (797927)
01-29-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
01-29-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Point /Counterpoint
Phat writes:

Noah was a healthy cell, so to speak...but I will argue that God knew that the cure was better than the disease.

You may make that claim but the fact is that the God character did not agree with you, that the God character went on to say it was a mistake and that he would not do it again, that Noah went and set up a vineyard and that Noah's descendants behaved no differently than all the folk the God character murdered. No in the story is there ever any evidence of any wrong doing by any of the people, animals, plants and other critters killed, only that the God character despaired of creating them.

Phat writes:

You guys may say that humans cower in fear over Gods judgments...and I've no reason to disagree.

Not really Phat, no one but the crazies say that. Honestly all the evidence is that there is nothing to fear from Gods judgement.

Phat writes:

We have to respect the authority, however. One cannot simply stand up and brazenly laugh in His face.

Why do we have to respect authority?

Why can't we stand up and brazenly laugh in His face?


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 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 84 of 438 (798737)
02-05-2017 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
02-05-2017 6:53 AM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

If in fact there is a unique impartation caused by personal belief in Who He Is, Christianity becomes a revealed belief rather than simply an intellectual one.

But that is simply a meaningless tautology. You can say exactly the same stuff about any religion.


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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 438 (799369)
02-09-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-09-2017 4:23 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.

But that is NOT what the Bible stories said. The stories show Jesus first being upset about what his mother tells him to do and also shows Jesus using the resources of the Communion for his own personal pleasure and justifying it by claiming he wouldn't always be there. The first shows he did have to think about making a better Jesus and the latter shows a self-centered Jesus.

The point is that the Bible shows Jesus simply as human while living, not some perfect creature.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:34 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 96 of 438 (799468)
02-10-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
02-10-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Hope this helps
You should know by now that yes, the Bible does teach what I claim and in fact you and I have discussed those passages several times over the decades.

Did Jesus lose his temper and destroy private property in a rage?

When Jesus' mother asked about the party beverages did he immediately obey and honor his mother or grumble?

When his disciples pointed out that he was using community funds for ointments and perfumes that should be given to the poor what excuse did he give for using them for himself?

Phat writes:

The belief that Jesus was simply an imperfect human is your idea.

You bring Jesus down and lift humans up. Very Jewish.

But I don't bring Jesus down or lift humans up; rather I simply point to what the authors of the stories actually wrote and don't pretend those passages are not there.


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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 146 of 438 (803284)
03-28-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
03-28-2017 12:21 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:

For one thing, we read that Jesus healed people. Can we claim the same ability?

Of course we can and heal more people than Jesus ever even saw.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 150 of 438 (803317)
03-28-2017 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
03-28-2017 5:13 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:

yeah, but you can't spit on dirt and rub mud in their eye...you gotta resort to technology in most cases...

Thank God. Yup, we do it much better than Jesus did.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 153 of 438 (803330)
03-28-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
03-28-2017 5:29 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:

Why should humans get all the credit for their own progress?

Maybe because all the evidence shows it really is their progress and no evidence of any other source for progress has been presented?


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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 156 of 438 (803354)
03-29-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Stile
03-29-2017 9:19 AM


On religious paradigm shifts
Stile writes:

Phat writes:

So how come science gets to have a paradigm shift while faith never gets that option?

I don't understand your question.
Why doesn't Faith have this option?
What's stopping Faith from having a paradigm shift?

Actually the whole history of faiths and religion are simply a series of paradigm shift.

Likely first were the animist religions, where nature and events were deities. There was the Sun and the Moon and Thunder and Lightning and Storms and the Trees and the Beasts.

The next paradigm shift was likely the Middle Eastern creation of the God of a given locale, one that was tied to a particular city or state. That paradigm even shows up in some of the Old Testament tales where the Hebrew God is shown as limited to the land the Hebrews occupied.

Next was likely the creation of the regional gods, ones that had limited power but over a whole area, not just some tiny area like a city or even a state like Judah or Israel (those last two often had an entirely different god than the other). That paradigm may have first been seen in the Vedic period in what is now India and later in Hinduism.

The next major paradigm, likely about 600 to 800 years before Jesus was created, was probably the Buddhist tradition where God becomes unknowable and all the earlier and later paradigms and gods that get created are subsumed.

About the same time another paradigm shift was happening to the north in China which the creation of religions based on the philosophy of one individual; Taoism and Confucianism. The sole purpose was changed from what the God wanted to what makes societies successful. They were likely the earliest attempts at a secular society based on a religion or philosophy.

When we look at any specific religion waswe also see paradigm shift after paradigm shift. The early Hebrew god is very humanist, personable, tied to one particular area or people, very limited yet powerful but only one god among many. Gradually that evolved to being the "One True God™" with all the others considered as false gods.

With the creation of Jesus there was yet another paradigm shift although it was still Judaism. The god created was boundless and not confined to one area or people. The later Islamic paradigm shift is almost identical except for its attribution of source.

But wait, there's more because almost all of the earlier paradigm shifts have also splintered creating additional paradigms; Sunni or Shia; Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox; Christian or "True Christian™".

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 159 of 438 (803416)
03-30-2017 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
03-30-2017 3:15 AM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:

well I suppose you could argue that the Creator does not *have* to be perfect, but the concept then becomes a creative imagination of your own mind....

But the Bible stories show an imperfect creator.

Phat writes:

We like our deities to be larger than life. Perfection is, after all, a worthy goal and calling.

That is a relatively modern concept and so Christianity created a perfect god. But it certainly was neither the concept of those who wrote the Bible stories or the other religions over time described gods that were far from perfect.


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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 198 of 438 (853322)
05-26-2019 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
05-26-2019 8:02 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
Phat writes:

If you honestly conclude that there is no GOD, God, or god (jars favorite terminology) the fact remains that GOD may still exist and likely differs from anything that you, I, or Stan Lee can imagine.

Again Phat, there is ample and irrefutable evidence that Gods and gods exist. They are ubiquitous and well documented. They are all also demonstrably ALL human creations.

There is NO evidence that any GOD or GODs exist.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 8:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 10:15 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 200 of 438 (853326)
05-26-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
05-26-2019 10:15 AM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
You always seem to neglect the second part of the construct.

If GOD does not exist then GOD does not exist regardless of anyone's belief that GOD does exist.

And the topic is also still "What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? " and the answer is still "There is no evidence of any benefits only available through God."


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 05-26-2019 10:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 222 of 438 (853360)
05-26-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
05-26-2019 5:04 PM


Re: As An Aside...
Why has there never been a single example of a prayer answered under controlled circumstances?

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jar
Member
Posts: 32161
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 231 of 438 (853383)
05-27-2019 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by foreveryoung
05-26-2019 10:31 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
According to the Bible God is not all powerful and existing outside of time and space.

Once again you are simply demonstrating that you have not honestly read the Bible or honestly believe what is written in the Bible. And we have had this conversation before and you seem to prefer willful ignorance to honesty.


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