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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?

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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 29 of 438 (797281)
01-16-2017 11:06 AM 		Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
01-15-2017 12:03 PM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
there may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top.
Are we going up the mountain or down?
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 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 12:03 PM Phat has replied
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ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 35 of 438 (797389)
01-19-2017 11:34 AM 		Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-18-2017 11:25 AM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
I personally believe that God finds us...
You sound like a Calvinist. Maybe there are some of us that God isn't looking for?
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Phat writes:
​
...we don't find Him unless we are making Him up.
I agree completely.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-18-2017 11:25 AM Phat has replied
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 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:36 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 42 of 438 (797517)
01-23-2017 10:57 AM 		Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
01-21-2017 4:36 AM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
And why wouldn't God love everybody?
You tell me. Why would God torture anybody eternally, even if they supposedly "chose" it? Why would He call that "love"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:36 AM Phat has replied
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 Message 45 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:09 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 43 of 438 (797519)
01-23-2017 10:58 AM 		Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-22-2017 8:23 AM

Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:
​
You will, however, have to accept Him for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.
Why doesn't He do the same for us?
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 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 8:23 AM Phat has replied
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ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
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Message 47 of 438 (797594)
01-24-2017 10:44 AM 		Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
01-23-2017 4:06 PM

Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:
​
You mean accept us how we are?
Think of the possible or potential implications.
What possible or potential implications? For one thing, He could save Himself a lot of hellfire and brimstone.
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Phat writes:
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And this assumes that there needs to be someone in charge. I suppose you could argue for anarchy.
I would argue that there IS nobody in charge. The main implication of Nobody doing nothing is that things would be exactly as they are.
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 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:06 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 05-29-2019 8:45 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 48 of 438 (797595)
01-24-2017 10:50 AM 		Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
01-23-2017 4:09 PM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
The way I see it, they actually tortured themselves by making bad choices.
Who gave them the choices? If somebody gives you a choice between gouging out your eye or chopping off your hand, who is responsible for your pain?
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 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-25-2017 11:53 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 52 of 438 (797751)
01-26-2017 10:46 AM 		Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
01-25-2017 11:53 AM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
God doesn't give us two bad choices.
Yes He does: an eternity of torture or an eternity of knowing He's torturing somebody else.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-25-2017 11:53 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-26-2017 1:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 10:57 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 54 of 438 (797794)
01-27-2017 10:44 AM 		Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-26-2017 1:48 PM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
...but then you claim that if God exists you should have the right to define and dictate His actions and choices as if YOU ran the place!
No. We're talking about the God that YOU define.
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Phat writes:
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...it seems as if you have a built in stubbornness towards authority!
Why do you keep saying that? I'm only against the authority that YOU define, an authority that isn't worthy of being followed.
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Phat writes:
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Its almost as if you are saying that if GOD does in fact exist, you won't be on board unless he does precisely what you want Him to do.
Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?
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Phat writes:
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I conclude that you simply prefer to be the captain of your own ship anyway.
What benefits are available through YOUR chosen Captain?
​
I'm just stepping up to do what Nobody Else is doing. I have to build my own ark.
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 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-26-2017 1:48 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:10 AM ringo has replied
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:24 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 58 of 438 (797801)
01-27-2017 11:36 AM 		Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
01-27-2017 10:57 AM

Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:
​
ringo writes:
​
Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.
I see no evidence of this in the story.
Floods happen.
You... have... got... to... be... kidding.
​
The story SAYS that God sent the Flood. The story SAYS that Noah built the ark. The story SAYS that everybody who didn't build an ark died.
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Phat writes:
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Do you blame God for droughts? Hurricanes? Auto accidents?
Do you believe God has any power at all?
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Phat writes:
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Blame God for not magically making life pain free. Its a silly argument, though.
So explain what's silly about it.
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Phat writes:
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ringo writes:
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Yes He does: an eternity of torture or an eternity of knowing He's torturing somebody else.
So in other words, you are arguing that GOD (specifically as a choice) is a bad choice because GOD is supposedly allowing droughts, hurricanes, and auto accidents to kill people....is that close to your position?
My position is what I said it is: Choosing between an eternity of torture or an eternity of watching torture is a bad choice.
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Phat writes:
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Here is basically how I see your position:
"There is no evidence and thus no such a thing as GOD. Humans are basically responsible to each other for choosing empathy, comfort, and good actions and works towards our fellow man. I argue these issues because I find the concept of GOD illogical and strive to continually point this out."
Not quite. More like, "There is no evidence and thus no reason to take 'God' into account. If He exists, He doesn't matter. I argue these issues because YOUR concept of God is illogical and inconsistent."
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Phat writes:
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Pretend that you are in a similar position as Job. Pretend that you are suddenly in an argument with a Being that others tell you is GOD.
Why would I care what others tell me? Why wouldn't I ask that Being for His credentials just like I ask the gas man when he comes to the door? Why does He sneak around in the bushes as if He was trying to steal the meter instead of reading it?
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Phat writes:
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It seems one of your main arguments tells Me to butt out of your life and quit frying your "friends"....but if I told you that you would eventually die without Me and that your friends also would perish, would you continue to blame Me for allowing a natural process to work?"
What? He created the ***ing natural process, didn't He? Sure, I'll eventually die and my friends also will perish. Why does He have to add eternal torture to that?
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Phat writes:
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In other words, Gods basic argument would be that people cannot survive for long without Him.
Who wants to survive "for long"? Why wouldn't a short life without Him be better than a long life with Him?
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ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 59 of 438 (797803)
01-27-2017 11:39 AM 		Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
01-27-2017 11:24 AM

Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
Phat writes:
​
Be hypothetical. Define a God...make Him the only One and explain the characteristics you would ascribe to Him making Him worthy of worship or of obedience?
Any Being that was capable of creating universes would not care about obedience or worship.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:24 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 1:18 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 60 of 438 (797805)
01-27-2017 12:05 PM 		Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-27-2017 11:10 AM

Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
​
ringo writes:
​
Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?
Bad analogy. People will never accept God because He never allows them to simply do what they want to do.(Original Sin hypothesis and analogy)
How is it a bad analogy? Why would you choose something that doesn't do what you want it to do?
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 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:10 AM Phat has not replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 67 of 438 (797920)
01-29-2017 1:08 PM 		Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
01-27-2017 1:18 PM

Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
Phat writes:
​
he MAY care about the life in those universes, however
The question is why WE should care whether or not He cares.
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ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 68 of 438 (797921)
01-29-2017 1:13 PM 		Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
01-29-2017 9:48 AM

Re: Point /Counterpoint
Phat writes:
​
I say that the God character was targeting humanity much as Doctors target Cancer.
Once again your Creator of All that is Seen and Unseen is pretty puny. He can't target individual cancer cells?
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 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 93 of 438 (799440)
02-10-2017 11:05 AM 		Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
02-09-2017 4:23 PM

Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:
​
I'm just contrasting me-centered spirituality with Jesus...who denied himself and never thought how he could make a better Jesus.
Jesus thought a lot about making a better YOU. The target is YOU.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 02-09-2017 4:23 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-10-2017 12:32 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3

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Message 97 of 438 (799580)
02-11-2017 10:53 AM 		Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
02-10-2017 12:32 PM

Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:
​
My point is that we need to avoid the unholy trinity: ME, Myself, and I.
That doesn't sound like your whole point. Your point for many posts seems to be that Jesus is more important than helping others.
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Phat writes:
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We help ourselves by helping others.
We may indirectly benefit ourselves by helping others but the main reason for helping others is helping others. It's community benefits that matter, not individual benefits (survival of the species, not just the individual).
This message is a reply to:
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