Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9045 total)
115 online now:
dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), nwr (3 members, 112 visitors)
Newest Member: maria
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 887,081 Year: 4,727/14,102 Month: 325/707 Week: 56/197 Day: 16/14 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 33 of 438 (797371)
01-19-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-06-2009 9:53 AM


Stile writes:

I became an atheist when I realized that there's nothing unique about the benefits I was getting through my honest efforts towards God and religion.

I might suggest that by looking for benefits you were actually turning away from God. The Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-06-2009 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 8:54 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 37 of 438 (797468)
01-21-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Stile
01-19-2017 8:54 AM


Stile writes:

My personal philosophy is very similar.
My point is this:

The results of "the Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others" are exactly the same as simply "living by not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others."

Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

Sure, but that doesn't give evidence one way or the other about the basic truth of the Christian faith. I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Stile writes:

The lives Christians lead are not better than the lives non-Christians lead.

I function in both environments and my experience doesn't reflect that. For example, in my Christian environment we are sponsoring several refugee families and in my secular environment there is more concern about problems they might cause when they get here and would rather we weren't doing it all.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 8:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:28 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 50 of 438 (797706)
01-25-2017 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Stile
01-22-2017 10:28 AM


GDR writes:

I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Stile writes:

Are you sure about that?
I got my ideas mostly from Eastern religions, really.

Sure, but like I said the society, Canada, does have a Judeo Christian root regardless of where your specific ideas have come from.

Stile writes:

The idea that one person, who is a Christian, thinks Christianity is the better... fits exactly with the idea I'm trying to describe.

My personal experience is different from yours.
My personal experience being different also fits exactly with my idea.

I did point that my own view was anecdotal, but I did give an actual example in the case of dealing with refugees. Nearly all of the money raised in the area has come from various Christian communities and the same is true, although again not completely, for the time spent helping them. The first group that came was Muslim.

Stile writes:

How does it fit in with yours? Am I lying? Am I mistaken? Is it impossible for some-certain group of atheists to be nicer than some-certain group of Christians? Are such 'Christians' not really Christians, so it doesn't count in your opinion? Are nice, helpful 'atheists' not really atheists in your opinion?

My being Christian does not at all mean that I am going to be "nicer or more self sacrificing" than the atheist next door, but it should mean that I am more that way than I had been before. I'd suggest that if Christianity doesn't make a change in someone's life then they have simply given intellectual ascent to Christianity but have not committed themselves to what it is they say they believe. However, they still would be Christians.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:28 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 01-26-2017 9:48 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 72 of 438 (798091)
01-30-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Stile
01-30-2017 3:28 PM


Hope this helps
Stile writes:

But... I do not understand what you mean by "given intellectual ascent to Christianity." Do you mean "aligns with some of the same ideals as Christianity?" Like - being nice to others, not killing, not stealing... that sort of thing? I certainly do accept such things as good ideals and morals to have. But I would never describe it as "giving intellectual ascent to Christianity." In fact, if this is what you're talking about... it would more aptly be described as "Christianity giving intellectual ascent to good, moral principals." Since the ideas can develop independently and/or stand on their own without Christianity, and they certainly existed well before Christianity did. All you have to do is make a personal decision to want to help people instead of hurting people and such ideas flow naturally from there. No mention of Christianity or God required for their derivation.


No. What I meant by giving intellectual ascent to Christianity is essentially acknowledging Jesus as Lord with the head but not the heart. I agree that one can take on good moral principles without acknowledging the Christian faith. We would differ on why that it is but that is a matter of belief. I would say that we are only able to live out the moral characteristics you talk about because they flow from God whether we acknowledge Him or not. You obviously would disagree.
I did want to respond to this quote from another post to MTW.
Stile writes:

I want very much to better myself as much as possible.
I want to help others as much as I can.
I want to reduce the amount of hurt I do to others as much as I can.
I want to be happy, and spread happiness as much as I can.
I want to be full of love and spread love to others as much as I can.
If you know of any benefits that would help me do any of those things "better" I would (very selfishly) ask you to share them with me so that I could learn and grow.


There are many aspects to the Christian faith and one of them is aligned with being the type of person that you describe in that quote. The other is that truth matters. In this case I’m talking about what is the truth of the Christian doctrine.

I have two fundamental beliefs that if I couldn’t hold them I would not refer to myself as a Christian. My view is that Christianity hangs on these two beliefs. The first is that God is good, always good and uncompromisingly good. (I’m quite happy with defining “good” in roughly the terms you outlined in your post.) The second is that God resurrected Jesus, into a new type of eternal bodily form after His crucifixion. All of my other Christian beliefs flow from those two fundamental beliefs. If I am wrong then I have nothing to offer in response to your question. As I said, truth matters.

If however I am correct then I can say that as humans and specifically Christians we are called to band together and work co-operatively in order to more effectively love our neighbour, wherever that neighbour happens to live. The “Samaritan” was Christ’s neighbour. Also we are told that our hearts as Christians are more open to that “still small voice of God” or His “Holy Spirit” that touches the hearts of all of us, than we would be otherwise. Again, anecdotally, but that has been my experience which is not to say that I am any better at living this way than what you are.

One other benefit that I haven’t mentioned is this. Christianity tells us that ultimately at the end of time, whenever that is, God will be renewing and resurrecting all things. The good and loving things that we do now, whether it is for others, for animals, for the planet or whatever are somehow used by God as part of this renewed world. We are called to work in anticipation of and for that day. It is my belief that we have purpose and meaning beyond the time when the universe as we know it comes to an end.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Stile, posted 01-30-2017 3:28 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 01-31-2017 11:05 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 78 of 438 (798313)
02-01-2017 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Stile
01-31-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Hope this helps
Hi Stile
I am enjoying your discussion with New Cat’s Eye. I’d like to take a different approach. Your discussion is pretty much about feelings and one’s response to those feelings. You both seem to agree that we can’t know whether those feelings are totally self generated or if there is an external influence such as “the still small voice of God”.

I’d like to approach it from another direction. You said in your last response to me:

Stile writes:

I certainly agree that truth matters.


The truth is that Christianity is dependent on the belief that God resurrected Jesus. I believe that He did and I contend that there is rational, but non-conclusive evidence to support that belief. However, I’ll put myself in your shoes and assume that I do not believe that to be the case.

Firstly, I would see no need to call myself a Christian and would be much more inclined to base my life on more recent figures, much the same way you say that you have been influenced more by eastern thought or religion. Buddhism has pretty much the same social message as Christianity. Gandhi or Martin Luther King would be great figures to revere.

I would also agree that all thoughts and feelings are totally self generated. There would be really no reason to think otherwise. As a matter of fact, I don’t think we would find much to disagree about.

The question I would ask is for you to consider how you would feel about these things if you were to conclude that Jesus was resurrected by God into a new form of existence nearly 2000 years ago.

As we agree, truth matters. We can’t have absolute knowledge of the truth but we can come to a conclusion of what we believe the truth to be.

I guess my contention would be that the answer to your original question really boils down to what we believe about Jesus. How do we respond to my signature? Is it really God that is calling us to humble justice and kindness or is it just our naturalistic human nature?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 01-31-2017 11:05 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 02-01-2017 6:03 PM GDR has responded
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 02-02-2017 10:17 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 80 of 438 (798322)
02-01-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
02-01-2017 6:03 PM


Re: Hope this helps
Phat writes:

Some believe that it is the belief itself that "activates" the communion. Others believe that behavior matters and therefore the belief itself is irrelevant. Personally, I believe the former, and I think GIA is asking you to consider the belief also....even if you don't think you need it.

The peanut gallery here at EvC always pushes behavior and declares belief irrelevant. While one side says that belief matters, the other side seems to say that GOD Himself is irrelevant and that only behavior really matters...be ye atheist or Nah....

That isn't the point I'm trying to make though. The point isn't about whether it is belief or behaviour that matter, it is about what we believe is the basis for our beliefs and behaviours. Are our beliefs and behaviours formed with or without the influence of God? As this thread is is specific to Christinaity, then I'm saying that what we believe about that is based on what we believe about Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 02-01-2017 6:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 02-05-2017 6:53 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 322 of 438 (853729)
05-31-2019 10:28 AM


Without getting into everyone's arguments how about one benefit being the fact that I exist.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by 1.61803, posted 05-31-2019 10:41 AM GDR has responded
 Message 325 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 11:02 AM GDR has responded
 Message 327 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 11:30 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 326 of 438 (853736)
05-31-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Tangle
05-31-2019 11:02 AM


Tangle writes:

I believe that's called begging the question.

Not really. The original question assumes the existence of an involved God ergo life itself is a benefit.

Tangle writes:

A very odd thing to me when visiting my dying relative yesterday was that his faith seemed to be growing stronger whilst his god was literally torturing him to death.
(The dosage of morphine necessary to stop his pain now would kill him and our fucked up, juvenile, religiously motivated health and judicial system is not allowed to do what we'd do for a dog in such circumstances.)

Does he wish he had never been born? The fact that he had the life that he did was a benefit.

Yes, it is a fact that physical entropy results in suffering, but also in the hearts of people like yourself I believe that there is a God given desire to do all that can be done to alleviate the suffering.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 11:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 11:50 AM GDR has responded
 Message 338 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 12:46 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 328 of 438 (853738)
05-31-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by 1.61803
05-31-2019 10:41 AM


1.61803 writes:

Hi GDR, you being a Theist yes that would be one.
But a Atheist would simply say it is arbitrary.
Because the fact that you exist could be due to something other than a creation from God. So yes for your own personal perspective that is a benefit, but what if your entire existences is one long painful nightmare?

But as I said to Tangle the question assumes the existence of God. An atheist can thank the infinite number of chance chemical processes, starting from mindless particles for his/her existence. I simply can't muster up that kind of faith.

My life has been great but yes, there are those whose life can be a painful nightmare so it is our jub to do all that we can to minimize the nightmare.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by 1.61803, posted 05-31-2019 10:41 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 329 of 438 (853739)
05-31-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Stile
05-31-2019 11:30 AM


Stile writes:

How is that a benefit only available through God?

I exist.
I don't require God in order to do so.


That is you belief and my belief is that we do. Again, the original question assumes the existence of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 11:30 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 11:46 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 334 of 438 (853748)
05-31-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Stile
05-31-2019 11:46 AM


Stile writes:

Okay.

So which of us is receiving a greater benefit?
How could we possibly tell?


Either way it is simply belief. It isn't about knowing in the scientific sense. There is a single mom in our church with a little guy who is severely autistic. When I look at how she loves and cares for that little guy I see God in that, I don't see a chance collection of mindless particles. I don't say that it proves my point but it is good enough for me.

Stile writes:

. I don't think it does.
2. I'm the writer of the original question.
3. Who cares what the original question may or may not have assumed? Your question is not the same question as the original, is it?

I agree that "If God exists, and the only way for people to exist is through God... then existing is a benefit only available through God."
But that's a silly, useless, circular point to make, don't you think?

The original only says: "what benefits are only available through God?". It does not say: "what benefits are only available through God if such an entity exists?"

Stile writes:

Wouldn't a deeper, more significant question be whether or not your believing in God that we exist is 'better' than my not-believing-in-God that we exist?

I think it is, and I don't see how we can come to any other conclusion than "they're the same."

Your way is better for you.
My way is better for me.

Nothing 'greater' about it in either direction.
Which is the point of this entire thread.


I agree about it being a better question. My answer would be that believing is a better conclusion.

If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless. You live you die, you procreate but in the end there will be a nuclear holocaust, the sun will burn out, we'll get hit by an asteroid or whatever, but this world will come to an end and ultimately it is pointless.

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence. When we work and donate to impoverished countries, when we campaign to stop pollution etc. it does ultimately matter. Our lives do have an ultimate purpose and I'm not just talking about a personal afterlife.

Also, I am not suggesting that only Christians or theists of any label live altruistically. I have an atheistic member of the family. I have told her that she is more Christ like than many Christians I know.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 11:46 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 1:50 PM GDR has responded
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 1:59 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 335 of 438 (853750)
05-31-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by ringo
05-31-2019 11:50 AM


ringo writes:

Maybe we should be talking about a net benefit here. After all, a lot of people do wish they had never been born.


I'm sure there are. Tangle's example is a case where his faith is providing comfort as he suffers through a very unpleasant death. I'm not holding that up as proof of God, but it is giving him a peace that he wouldn't have otherwise.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:26 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 337 of 438 (853754)
05-31-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by ringo
05-31-2019 12:26 PM


ringo writes:

On the contrary, he could have the same comfort just by being a positive person with no reference to God at all. The comfort is entirely internal, so it can not be cited as a benefit only available through God. Even if God does exist, He really has nothing to do with that comfort.

Maybe, but in this case it sounds like this is his source of comfort, and we can't know what he would be like without it.

For that matter we can't know whether or not the person who finds comfort simply because they are a positive person is that way because of God, whether they believe in Him or not.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 344 of 438 (853850)
06-01-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Tangle
05-31-2019 12:46 PM


Tangle writes:

Right, so god is responsible for the benefit of life but physical entropy is responsible for suffering. Cute.

I'm not blaming entropy as entropy is mindless. It just is. Suffering from non-human sources seems to be a result of the fact that we live in a world that is subject to the vicissitudes of a world within time. This is the way the world is, and sure, you can claim that a loving creator god could not have allowed for suffering. It's a good argument.

However, it is my contention that entropy is a necessary feature of this world and that a loving deity has given us as humans the job of doing all that we can to mitigate suffering, whether the suffering is caused by humans or not.

Tangle writes:

It's a human not a god given desire and its primitive religious thinking that's preventing us ending the suffering in a humane way.

I don't want to get embroiled in an argument about euthanasia but I would just say this. It isn't my religion that makes me opposed to it. If it was simply about people like your friend that would be one thing. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be unintended consequences. As the population ages there will be more and more pressure put on people to "do the right thing" as they are past their "best sell by date". Offspring, pushing mentally confused parents to be euthanized so that they can inherit sooner rather than later. It is a very slippery slope. Another would be the pressure to euthanize the mentally handicapped. The last was a feature of Nazism. We are very capable of going down that road.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 12:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 5:30 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2019 6:06 PM GDR has responded
 Message 349 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2019 6:32 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 346 of 438 (853855)
06-01-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Stile
05-31-2019 1:50 PM


Stile writes:

But, according to Stile, I have no such fears of pointlessness.
In fact, I find more pointlessness in being created by a God than I do in determining my own purpose in life.

I agree that if you have such fears... then believing in God can be a benefit for you.
But if I don't have such fears... why do I need such a "benefit?"

If I have similar fears about ultimate purpose - such as "If I was created by a God, that really turns this life into a bit of a mouse-and-cheese maze... but I want to be more than that - I want to be completely free to create my own purpose - free of all Creator-Gods"
-Then believing in God is actually detrimental to me.
-And by creating my own purpose, and not involving God in any of it - I obtain the same benefit for myself that you receive from God for yourself.


OK, but God, as I understand Him, leaves you completely free to "create your own purpose". I am not suggesting that you have to involve any deity in order to do that.

In some ways atheism leaves you freer to choose what I believe God wants you to choose which is that you live a life based on the sacrificial love of others and for all of creation. You aren't looking for a reward of any kind you are simply choosing to do the loving thing for its own sake.

However, I would contend as a Christian that I am only able to choose the loving thing because God loved me first and that any loving thing I am able to do is just that I am reflecting God's love into the situation. I would also add that I strongly disagree that the point of Christianity is personal salvation. The point of Christianity is personal vocation. Yes, the Biblical message talks about the renewal of all things under Christ, but where you or I fit into that is God's business and not mine. Our vocation is simply to be loving stewards over creation.

GDR writes:

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.

Stile writes:

You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.

How can it make things worse for you. If I can assume that you are, or have been a loving parent in your life, then isn't it better that that act of love has a positive effect on creation both now and into an eternal renewal of creation, than simply the effect it has on your descendants for a few generations?

Stile writes:

Again - I fully agree.
And again - I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.

So what is the benefit here that cannot be obtained without God?
I don't see any.
I just see a man identifying that GDR, himself, would have less benefit without God - but this same man is unable to comprehend that, perhaps, not everyone thinks the same way he does.

I take it you wouldn't be surprised if you and I have two different favourite colours?
Why then, do you appear so unable to understand that you and I have two different favourite solutions for life's big unknowns?

I think that the argument can be made that many people, such as Tangle's friend, do find solace and comfort from the belief in a specific deity, in this case the Christian god. That is a benefit for many although not for you.

Ultimately though it all boils down to Pilate's big question. What is truth. Is there a good and loving god? Did Jesus perfectly embody the wisdom and nature of God? Did that God resurrect Jesus? For me there is sufficient evidence from historical accounts; from my own observations of our world and my life in it; from my own life experience and even from reading books on the subject of physics, (even though it has only resulted in the tiniest basic understanding of the subject). If what I believe by faith to be true then there are benefits, including life itself, that are only available through God. Those benefits though are not subject to our beliefs about God. The rain falls on the good and the evil.

Thanks Stile, I enjoy your posts.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 1:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Stile, posted 06-03-2019 10:25 AM GDR has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021