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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 438 (799737)
02-14-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Stile
02-13-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
I do it because I think it's the right thing to do.
Doesn't doing the right thing make you feel good?
Stile writes:
Sometimes it does make me feel good, but many times it does not.
Maybe it's a short-term/long-term thing. If I help push somebody's car out of a snowdrift, that definitely doesn't feel good. But afterwards I'm glad I did it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Stile, posted 02-13-2017 2:26 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 11:57 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 438 (799742)
02-14-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Stile
02-14-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
But, lets say (for the sake of argument) that every single time I do something good, I feel good.
Just because that happens, doesn't mean the reason I do good things is in order to feel good.
"Reasoning" isn't always conscious. The instinct to promote the survival of the species may be offering you a shot of endorphins without you being aware of it.
Stile writes:
It's the sort of thing you just have to take my word for it.
Or you can think I'm lying.
Or you can think I'm mistaken, or confused.
Or I can wait fifty years for you to catch up with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 11:57 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 12:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 438 (799805)
02-15-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Stile
02-14-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
That still doesn't change the fact that when I choose to do a good thing, I do it because I want to help others instead of hurt them.
That doesn't sound much different from helping people because God wants you to. It doesn't really explain anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 02-14-2017 12:36 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Stile, posted 02-16-2017 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 438 (799894)
02-17-2017 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Stile
02-16-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
It is only meant to explain the question "Why does Stile do good things?"
And it is very good at explaining that question.
It's a tautology, not an explanation. I like ice cream because it tastes good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Stile, posted 02-16-2017 12:51 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 02-17-2017 1:47 PM ringo has replied
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 02-19-2017 11:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 438 (799945)
02-18-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
02-17-2017 1:47 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Phat writes:
A tautology is defined as a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form.
Why must you quibble over semantics?
If I said an elephant is not an eggplant, I suppose you'd call that semantics?
"I do good things because I want to help others," doesn't explain anything. Why do you want to help others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 02-17-2017 1:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 115 of 438 (800238)
02-21-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
02-19-2017 11:39 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
At some point, you simply have to accept the answer of "Because."
Sure. But it's not an explanation. It's the same as "God did it".
Stile writes:
If you want to ask "why do we experience feelings at all?" or "why do we have a conscious brain at all?" then I too would like answers to these questions.
All I did was suggest that there may be a biological basis for your "decision". I don't require a long-winded defence of your claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 02-19-2017 11:39 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Stile, posted 02-21-2017 11:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 438 (800245)
02-21-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Stile
02-21-2017 11:34 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
In fact, many times I feel better when I do something bad than when I do something good.
Which is why I differentiated between short-term and long-term. You may get a short-term rush and then a long-term twinge of conscience.
Stile writes:
Who's the best judge as to why I make this decision?
Isn't it me?
No. We're the worst judges of whether or not there's a beam in our eye.
Stile writes:
But as for me, I have to thank-you for this extended back-and-forth. It's forced me to reflect upon my thoughts and feelings about the matter again from different angles.
That was the point.
Stile writes:
And after being unable to find a valid issue with the way I've been describing such things... all of this has lead to confirming my initial thoughts on the matter even further.
It tends to have the same effect on creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Stile, posted 02-21-2017 11:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Stile, posted 02-21-2017 1:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 438 (800363)
02-22-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Stile
02-21-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
But what if I don't get a long-term twinge of conscience?
I don't remember ever getting such a thing.
Oh come on. You've never said to yourself, "I wish I had never said such-and-such to so-and-so"?
Stile writes:
For a question like "what is Stile's favourite colour?" Wouldn't you say that Stile is the best person to answer this question?
We'd have to look into why it's your favourite colour. Maybe Grandma had a dress that colour so you unconsciously associate that colour with Grandma.
What seems fairly UNlikely is that you consciously chose your favourite colour.
Stile writes:
1. Some biological changes are going on that are secretly causing me to choose things that happen to align with what I consciously choose.
2. I consciously choose what I consciously choose.
But one of them seems more likely.
The problem is that #2 doesn't explain anything. It just ignores the more probable #1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Stile, posted 02-21-2017 1:05 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 10:02 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 438 (800415)
02-23-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stile
02-23-2017 10:02 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
What if I don't get a long-term twinge of conscience?
What if your furnace doesn't come on when it's minus 40? It's a sign that it isn't working properly.
I get twinges of conscience about things that probably weren't "bad' at all. The "purpose" of conscience is to prevent bad behaviour. If mine wasn't working I'd be worried.
Stile writes:
Am I the best person to understand why I fully consciously choose to do things? Why wouldn't I be? How could someone else have a better angle at it?
I'll call the University and tell them they can shut down the Psychology Department.
Stile writes:
I can use my fully conscious decision-making skills to hold my breath for a few seconds whenever I choose to.
Again... short-term versus long-term. You can't consciously decide to hold your breath for three years. Your body will send you little hints that it needs oxygen, just like your conscious should send you little hints about good behaviour.
Conscious decisions don't happen in a vacuum. They have to operate on inputs and many of those inputs are unconscious. So claiming that you just do something because of a conscious decision doesn't explain anything. You might as well say, "God did it."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 10:02 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 11:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 123 of 438 (800427)
02-23-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Stile
02-23-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
I do good things because I choose to try and help people instead of hurt people when I interact with them.
How do you decide what is "help" and what is "hurt"?
If somebody asks me for spare change, I feel better if I give it to him than if I don't. Short-term I might think I'd rather spend it at Tim Hortons but long-term I feel better for giving it away.
I've been told by people on this very forum that I'm not "helping" the person at all. So, if my conscious mind was working "as Stile wants it to", how should I decide what is help and what is hurt?
Stile writes:
So, no answer.
The answer that you missed was, "Every psychologist on earth is better equipped than you to figure out how your mind works."
Stile writes:
... regardless of how much my body wants to breathe in the long term, why I choose to hold my breath when I fully consciously choose to do so is of my own reasoning...
And that statement is still just as empty as it always has been. "God did it."
Stile writes:
I agree that I can sometimes get a long term twang in my conscience.
And this is totally irrelevant as to why I decide to fully consciously do good things....
How can you know it's irrelevant?
Stile writes:
Just because unconscious inputs are a part of the equation does not mean they are the most significant factor, or even a significant factor.
I'm just saying they're not "totally irrelevant".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 11:42 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 2:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 438 (800500)
02-24-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Stile
02-23-2017 2:49 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
How do you decide what is "help" and what is "hurt"?
I don't.
I let the person-being-affected-by-my-actions decide.
Huh? How is that you making a conscious decision?
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
So, if my conscious mind was working "as Stile wants it to", how should I decide what is help and what is hurt?
The person asked for spare change. I would find it safe to assume they'll be happy if you give them spare change.
Again, how is that me making a conscious decision? It's just, "Yes sir, sure sir, three bags full sir."
Thus, giving them spare change is a good thing.
Tell that to the people on this forum who think I'm just fueling the panhandler's drug habit.
In the short term I give them spare change because I know I will feel bad if I don't. In the long term, I rationalize that I'm giving them their dignity by not assuming they're liars.
Stile writes:
If "because I want to help people instead of hurt people" is the same as "God did it" to you... then I don't think I can convince you otherwise. I can't even imagine the thought process that would lead to such a strange conclusion.
It's a pretty simple thought process. You say yourself that sometimes the answer is, "Because." You're leaving a big empty space in the middle of the equation with, "Insert conscious decision here," but you're not explaining how that conscious decision is made. Hence, you're not explaining at all.
We have the same problem with creationists all the time. They say, "That's just an assumption," but they don't understand that assumptions are based on something. You can't make conscious decisions in a vacuum. They have to be based on something. You're trying to tell us that it's just conscious decisions all the way down.
You remind me of the Christians I know who are always saying, "God is leading me to...."
God did it. Insert conscious decision here.
You seem to be rationalizing about "helping" but you can't explain what helping is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Stile, posted 02-23-2017 2:49 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 02-26-2017 10:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 438 (800619)
02-26-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Stile
02-26-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
Or are you trying to say it's impossible for anyone to ever make a conscious decision to give a beggar money?
I don't think it's impossible. I just think it's unlikely that it's as Spock-like as you describe. There's a lot of unconscious baggage on every "conscious" decision.
Stile writes:
However, I absolutely do not use the answer of "Because" when I make a fully conscious decision.
There's no such thing as a fully conscious decision.
Stile writes:
If that's not a "conscious decision" and that's what you're calling "God did it" or "Because"... then every decision anyone ever makes is "God did it."
No. Every decision anyone ever makes is partly conscious and partly unconscious. The God-did-it miracle is the omniscient consciousness that you claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 02-26-2017 10:19 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Stile, posted 02-28-2017 9:05 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 438 (800807)
02-28-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Stile
02-28-2017 9:05 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
I would define a fully conscious decision as this:
A decision where the decision-maker has multiple options. They review and consider the possible futures depending on the options they have available to them. Out of those options, they pick the one they want.
...and that's the end of "why" the conscious decision is made.
Simply because "out of the possible options, this is the one I consciously want."
I would call that a "typical" decision - i.e. one that is not fully conscious. I can "consciously" choose chocolate ice cream over forty other flavours without having any conscious knowledge of why I prefer chocolate. I don't call that "fully conscious".
Of course conscious motivations exist - but they're not the whole story.
Stile writes:
It's also quite possible that psychologists will one day uncover that conscious motivations definitely do exist.
I said that FULLY conscious decisions don't exist.
Stile writes:
I will point you towards the science that shows that you cannot possibly know such a thing yet.
As far as I know, science and logic can not prove a negative - i.e. they can not prove that there is NO unconscious component.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Stile, posted 02-28-2017 9:05 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Stile, posted 02-28-2017 11:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 132 of 438 (800809)
02-28-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
02-28-2017 6:07 AM


Re: Soulja Boy Tellem
Phat writes:
My only argument is what constitutes "spare" change. I don't have enough money to feed the streets forever.
All of the change in my pocket is spare. The twenty-dollar bills are not. And I don't write cheques to panhandlers. If they start asking for twenties or cheques, I'll be in a quandary. Otherwise, I'm not.
Phat writes:
And that is a fully conscious decision on my part.
It's more of a rationalization - convincing yourself that the wrong thing was the right thing.
I do make a "conscious" decision NOT to be selfish. Unconsciously I'm selfish in the short-term but I know that in the long term I'll have a guilty conscience if I don't help somebody. Short-term biology versus long-term socialization.
A large part of consciousness is being conscious (to some extent) of your unconscious. Ironically, the less conscious you are, the more conscious you think you are. The less you know, the more you think you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 02-28-2017 6:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 438 (800813)
02-28-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Stile
02-28-2017 11:59 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Stile writes:
Isn't the only data you require, in order to make a conscious decision, that you do indeed "prefer chocolate?"
That's like saying the only data I need to decide who to vote for is, "I like his tie."
Stile writes:
Is it impossible to consciously agree with a non-conscious urge?
I didn't say it was impossible. The fact that we all do things that are bad for us is an indication that it doesn't happen very often.
Stile writes:
Is it possible to use your consciousness to agree with a non-conscious urge?
If you follow a non-conscious urge, what difference does it make if you rationalize it later as a "conscious decision"?
Stile writes:
But the science openly says that they are unable to show if conscious (fully or otherwise) decisions exist or not.
Can science ever prove that there is no unconscious component?
Stile writes:
You saying you can know such a thing is a baseless claim.
I'm saying that as far as I know science can not prove that there is no unconscious component in decision-making. Are you claiming that it can?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Stile, posted 02-28-2017 11:59 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Stile, posted 03-01-2017 1:07 PM ringo has replied

  
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