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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Doesn't doing the right thing make you feel good?
I do it because I think it's the right thing to do. Stile writes:
Maybe it's a short-term/long-term thing. If I help push somebody's car out of a snowdrift, that definitely doesn't feel good. But afterwards I'm glad I did it.
Sometimes it does make me feel good, but many times it does not.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
"Reasoning" isn't always conscious. The instinct to promote the survival of the species may be offering you a shot of endorphins without you being aware of it.
But, lets say (for the sake of argument) that every single time I do something good, I feel good. Just because that happens, doesn't mean the reason I do good things is in order to feel good. Stile writes:
Or I can wait fifty years for you to catch up with me.
It's the sort of thing you just have to take my word for it.Or you can think I'm lying. Or you can think I'm mistaken, or confused.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
That doesn't sound much different from helping people because God wants you to. It doesn't really explain anything.
That still doesn't change the fact that when I choose to do a good thing, I do it because I want to help others instead of hurt them.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
It's a tautology, not an explanation. I like ice cream because it tastes good.
It is only meant to explain the question "Why does Stile do good things?"And it is very good at explaining that question.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If I said an elephant is not an eggplant, I suppose you'd call that semantics? A tautology is defined as a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form.Why must you quibble over semantics? "I do good things because I want to help others," doesn't explain anything. Why do you want to help others?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Sure. But it's not an explanation. It's the same as "God did it".
At some point, you simply have to accept the answer of "Because." Stile writes:
All I did was suggest that there may be a biological basis for your "decision". I don't require a long-winded defence of your claim.
If you want to ask "why do we experience feelings at all?" or "why do we have a conscious brain at all?" then I too would like answers to these questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Which is why I differentiated between short-term and long-term. You may get a short-term rush and then a long-term twinge of conscience.
In fact, many times I feel better when I do something bad than when I do something good. Stile writes:
No. We're the worst judges of whether or not there's a beam in our eye.
Who's the best judge as to why I make this decision?Isn't it me? Stile writes:
That was the point.
But as for me, I have to thank-you for this extended back-and-forth. It's forced me to reflect upon my thoughts and feelings about the matter again from different angles. Stile writes:
It tends to have the same effect on creationists.
And after being unable to find a valid issue with the way I've been describing such things... all of this has lead to confirming my initial thoughts on the matter even further.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Oh come on. You've never said to yourself, "I wish I had never said such-and-such to so-and-so"?
But what if I don't get a long-term twinge of conscience?I don't remember ever getting such a thing. Stile writes:
We'd have to look into why it's your favourite colour. Maybe Grandma had a dress that colour so you unconsciously associate that colour with Grandma. For a question like "what is Stile's favourite colour?" Wouldn't you say that Stile is the best person to answer this question? What seems fairly UNlikely is that you consciously chose your favourite colour.
Stile writes:
The problem is that #2 doesn't explain anything. It just ignores the more probable #1.
1. Some biological changes are going on that are secretly causing me to choose things that happen to align with what I consciously choose.2. I consciously choose what I consciously choose. But one of them seems more likely.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
What if your furnace doesn't come on when it's minus 40? It's a sign that it isn't working properly. What if I don't get a long-term twinge of conscience? I get twinges of conscience about things that probably weren't "bad' at all. The "purpose" of conscience is to prevent bad behaviour. If mine wasn't working I'd be worried.
Stile writes:
I'll call the University and tell them they can shut down the Psychology Department.
Am I the best person to understand why I fully consciously choose to do things? Why wouldn't I be? How could someone else have a better angle at it? Stile writes:
Again... short-term versus long-term. You can't consciously decide to hold your breath for three years. Your body will send you little hints that it needs oxygen, just like your conscious should send you little hints about good behaviour. I can use my fully conscious decision-making skills to hold my breath for a few seconds whenever I choose to. Conscious decisions don't happen in a vacuum. They have to operate on inputs and many of those inputs are unconscious. So claiming that you just do something because of a conscious decision doesn't explain anything. You might as well say, "God did it."
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
How do you decide what is "help" and what is "hurt"? I do good things because I choose to try and help people instead of hurt people when I interact with them. If somebody asks me for spare change, I feel better if I give it to him than if I don't. Short-term I might think I'd rather spend it at Tim Hortons but long-term I feel better for giving it away. I've been told by people on this very forum that I'm not "helping" the person at all. So, if my conscious mind was working "as Stile wants it to", how should I decide what is help and what is hurt?
Stile writes:
The answer that you missed was, "Every psychologist on earth is better equipped than you to figure out how your mind works."
So, no answer. Stile writes:
And that statement is still just as empty as it always has been. "God did it."
... regardless of how much my body wants to breathe in the long term, why I choose to hold my breath when I fully consciously choose to do so is of my own reasoning... Stile writes:
How can you know it's irrelevant?
I agree that I can sometimes get a long term twang in my conscience.And this is totally irrelevant as to why I decide to fully consciously do good things.... Stile writes:
I'm just saying they're not "totally irrelevant".
Just because unconscious inputs are a part of the equation does not mean they are the most significant factor, or even a significant factor.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Huh? How is that you making a conscious decision?
ringo writes:
I don't. How do you decide what is "help" and what is "hurt"? I let the person-being-affected-by-my-actions decide. Stile writes:
Again, how is that me making a conscious decision? It's just, "Yes sir, sure sir, three bags full sir."
ringo writes:
The person asked for spare change. I would find it safe to assume they'll be happy if you give them spare change. So, if my conscious mind was working "as Stile wants it to", how should I decide what is help and what is hurt? Thus, giving them spare change is a good thing.
Tell that to the people on this forum who think I'm just fueling the panhandler's drug habit. In the short term I give them spare change because I know I will feel bad if I don't. In the long term, I rationalize that I'm giving them their dignity by not assuming they're liars.
Stile writes:
It's a pretty simple thought process. You say yourself that sometimes the answer is, "Because." You're leaving a big empty space in the middle of the equation with, "Insert conscious decision here," but you're not explaining how that conscious decision is made. Hence, you're not explaining at all. If "because I want to help people instead of hurt people" is the same as "God did it" to you... then I don't think I can convince you otherwise. I can't even imagine the thought process that would lead to such a strange conclusion. We have the same problem with creationists all the time. They say, "That's just an assumption," but they don't understand that assumptions are based on something. You can't make conscious decisions in a vacuum. They have to be based on something. You're trying to tell us that it's just conscious decisions all the way down. You remind me of the Christians I know who are always saying, "God is leading me to...." God did it. Insert conscious decision here. You seem to be rationalizing about "helping" but you can't explain what helping is.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
I don't think it's impossible. I just think it's unlikely that it's as Spock-like as you describe. There's a lot of unconscious baggage on every "conscious" decision.
Or are you trying to say it's impossible for anyone to ever make a conscious decision to give a beggar money? Stile writes:
There's no such thing as a fully conscious decision.
However, I absolutely do not use the answer of "Because" when I make a fully conscious decision. Stile writes:
No. Every decision anyone ever makes is partly conscious and partly unconscious. The God-did-it miracle is the omniscient consciousness that you claim.
If that's not a "conscious decision" and that's what you're calling "God did it" or "Because"... then every decision anyone ever makes is "God did it."
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
I would call that a "typical" decision - i.e. one that is not fully conscious. I can "consciously" choose chocolate ice cream over forty other flavours without having any conscious knowledge of why I prefer chocolate. I don't call that "fully conscious". I would define a fully conscious decision as this: A decision where the decision-maker has multiple options. They review and consider the possible futures depending on the options they have available to them. Out of those options, they pick the one they want....and that's the end of "why" the conscious decision is made. Simply because "out of the possible options, this is the one I consciously want." Of course conscious motivations exist - but they're not the whole story.
Stile writes:
I said that FULLY conscious decisions don't exist.
It's also quite possible that psychologists will one day uncover that conscious motivations definitely do exist. Stile writes:
As far as I know, science and logic can not prove a negative - i.e. they can not prove that there is NO unconscious component.
I will point you towards the science that shows that you cannot possibly know such a thing yet.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
All of the change in my pocket is spare. The twenty-dollar bills are not. And I don't write cheques to panhandlers. If they start asking for twenties or cheques, I'll be in a quandary. Otherwise, I'm not.
My only argument is what constitutes "spare" change. I don't have enough money to feed the streets forever. Phat writes:
It's more of a rationalization - convincing yourself that the wrong thing was the right thing. And that is a fully conscious decision on my part. I do make a "conscious" decision NOT to be selfish. Unconsciously I'm selfish in the short-term but I know that in the long term I'll have a guilty conscience if I don't help somebody. Short-term biology versus long-term socialization. A large part of consciousness is being conscious (to some extent) of your unconscious. Ironically, the less conscious you are, the more conscious you think you are. The less you know, the more you think you know.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
That's like saying the only data I need to decide who to vote for is, "I like his tie."
Isn't the only data you require, in order to make a conscious decision, that you do indeed "prefer chocolate?" Stile writes:
I didn't say it was impossible. The fact that we all do things that are bad for us is an indication that it doesn't happen very often.
Is it impossible to consciously agree with a non-conscious urge? Stile writes:
If you follow a non-conscious urge, what difference does it make if you rationalize it later as a "conscious decision"?
Is it possible to use your consciousness to agree with a non-conscious urge? Stile writes:
Can science ever prove that there is no unconscious component?
But the science openly says that they are unable to show if conscious (fully or otherwise) decisions exist or not. Stile writes:
I'm saying that as far as I know science can not prove that there is no unconscious component in decision-making. Are you claiming that it can?
You saying you can know such a thing is a baseless claim.
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