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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 3524
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 166 of 418 (803590)
04-02-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Thugpreacha
03-31-2017 3:51 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

What specific facts are you looking for?

Any and all.

As an example, take pyramid power. If it could be documented that the atmosphere within the pyramid is in fact charged with more electrical stimulus than a control box, would that somehow make pyramid power more valid as a factually based spiritual path?

I don't know enough about such things.
What is it about electrical stimulus that would lend itself to being a "more valid" spiritual path?

At times, I can be around a lot of electrical control boxes at work (I've designed, installed and used them in the past).
I didn't notice any "more valid" spiritual paths associated with them. I don't see how there's any link at all, really.

Are you claiming that the source of the spirituality is less important than the recipient of said spirituality?

This would depend on the circumstance and situation, of course.
However, as long as we have no known way to validate the identify of the source... then yes, of course.

How could we place more importance on something we have no way of knowing?

If we could, however, actually know these "sources..." then that's a whole different ball game.
One I'd very much like to understand.

But such knowledge doesn't seem to be available to us.
What else can we do other than work with what we have available to us?

a bit like the i-god syndrome.

I don't know what an i-god is

Perhaps, in the final analysis, we all are selfish to a degree.

I think selfishness depends on your own motivations.
Only you will know if you're doing something for your own sake, or to try and help someone else.
The external observations can certainly be interpreted one way or the other by many different people.
But only you know the truth.

Selfishness isn't always a bad thing, either.
Like if my wife wants to watch a movie... and she wants me to choose which one... me choosing a movie I want to watch is selfish, but not a bad thing. Me saying something like "no, you choose!" Is not selfish... but only shifts the responsibility of "choosing the movie" back onto her... something she clearly didn't want by asking me to choose the movie. Therefore, this "non-selfish" move would actually be a bad thing.

Being honest and willing to correct your possible errors is the only way to navigate such strange waters.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-31-2017 3:51 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3524
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 167 of 418 (822009)
10-17-2017 12:06 PM


Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
I recently read an article on Cracked called 4 Specific Things You Lose When You Leave Christianity

Hopefully that link will stay around for a while. Cracked has a habit of altering the title's of their articles. And, since they refer to their URL by title, doing so would make my link defunct. Ah well, I do what I can.

The article was written by one Kristi Harrison.
This link to her profile says her name is "hereinidaho."
I don't know how useful that profile is, but it was linked by the article, so I linked it here as well.

This is just going to be a long, rambling post because I feel like it.

I should note that Cracked is a humour website.
Although it does sometimes try to write about serious topics, with just a bit of humour added in.
It is up to the reader to decide if this article was meant to be serious or not. I'm going to take it's themes as serious, because it's what I like to have serious talks about.

I'm going to list the 4 things the article talks about, summarize what I think they're trying to say about them, and then talk about why I think the thing can be obtained just fine without Christianity.

Article Introduction

What the article says: Kristi was a devout Christian, it was a very ingrained part of her life. She went to church more than once a week on many occasions and attended a Baptist College for school. Kristi recounts a memory about losing her belief later in life during a Bible Study on Revelations when it gets to a place describing angels and dragons. She identifies that she doesn't actually believe in angels or dragons, then reflects more on her beliefs and describes a "domino effect" of eventually losing all belief. The following specifics are things Kristi misses about believing when now she's unable to honestly believe.

What I think about it: Kristi lost a very deep, encompassing part of her life as a believer. This is going to come with some sadness and regret. Perhaps Kristi is unable to fill these voids without anything other than belief. Maybe belief in something else, or maybe she will regrettably have a huge void/hole in herself for the rest of her life. Perhaps not. I'm not going to discuss much about Kristi's personal ability to acquire a healthy spiritual life without believing in Christianity... my ramblings will be more focused on the general idea of obtaining spiritual advantages while not believing in religion. I hope that they would be applicable for Kristi, but that's up to her and her alone.

In her article, Kristi is talking about how things affected her personally. To do so is a perfectly valid and serious idea to talk about. She discusses how things are difficult for her, personally, to obtain without religion after leaving a religion that was extremely ingrained into her personal life. My response to that basically condenses down to a "well, duh..." My rambling here, however, will be more focused on how the things she brings up are easily obtainable without religion in general, because that's what I like to talk about.

4. You Miss Getting High on Worship

What the article says: Going to church was an addictive, engaging and exciting experience for Kristi. She hasn't been able to replicate this feeling anywhere else.

What I think about it: If you can't find addictive, engaging, exciting activities without religion... you're simply looking in the wrong places. What interests you? Look up some local groups that do the same thing. Get involved and go to them. This basically seems to me that Kristi hasn't been able to get friends who are supportive and loving to her as she had when she was in church.

Depending on how ingrained she was with church, this can be entirely understandable. It's hard to make new friends and new contacts as an adult with responsibilities in the current work-life of 2017. But "hard" doesn't mean "unattainable." You simply have to put some effort in.

Church had meeting times and a specific place to congregate. Many activities have these same things. The only catch is... the activity has to speak to you personally. You can't join some sports team if you don't like sports. You can't join a video-game group of people who play every night together if you don't like the video game. You have to find something that speaks to you, then find others who like the same thing. Then join in with the agreed upon times of congregation. The internet is a big place, make use of it.

Addictive, engaging, exciting activities certainly exist and are certainly attainable without religion.
If they weren't... all non-church-going people would be dull and boring. This is factually (and easily verifiably) untrue. Therefore... this is a problem of motivation, not that religion is the only place to get a socially-acceptable high.

3. You Miss Your Culture and Community

What the article says: Kristi describes how many people in her old church helped her and her family out in times of need. Money, and effort and all sorts of things.

What I think about it: People help each other all the time. With money and effort and all sorts of things. This doesn't take religion. The only point here is regarding Kristi specifically... her entire life had close friends within the church. She's now outside the church and away from those close friends and hasn't found another group of close friends yet. This dilemma is serious and devastating. But, again, just because something can be difficult to obtain for a few specific people without religion doesn't mean it can't be obtained (sometimes easily for others in other situations) without religion.

2. You Miss Magic

What the article says: Here Kristi talks about how God is "in control" of all things, has "a plan" and always there for everyone and how this takes your worries away.

What I think about it: There are 2 ways to go on this one. First, you can keep the "magic" be believing in something else... "the universe provides" is just as powerful as "God provides" if you believe in it. Of course, what if you don't believe in any such thing? Then, the result usually comes down to something like this: Second, get away from taking solace in magic, and start taking solace in non-magic.

For example: Think about how often "the magic" fails (even though it's not acknowledged in church):
God is in control and has a plan... but sometimes that plan means you get cancer and die. Or you get mugged and shot. Or you get kidnapped and placed into sexual slavery while on vacation. These are all things that actually happen to actual people. The solace of the magic isn't much solace for those people.

Then, think about what we do know:
We may not be in control of everything, but we are in control of many things. Think about what you can control, what you understand is controlled around you (by others or by nature) and how that all works to your advantage. Think about taking precautions, but also being fun and reckless in the proper situations. Feel free to go out, investigate, and learn even more.

Also, for things that don't have an answer, find solace in the community that exists because no one has the answer.
Think about it.
If we don't know what happens when we die... because there's no answer... then we all don't have that same answer.

Your boss? Doesn't know.
That guy who won 40 episodes of Jeopardy? Doesn't know.
Stephen Hawking? Doesn't know.
Sheldon from TV? Doesn't know.
Those hundreds of people in traffic with you? All don't know.
Those people right outside your office or house? All don't know.

You can't be expected to know, prepare, or be responsible for something that's completely impossible for you to know. So take solace in that. It's very helpful for me, anyway.

This part of the article, though, I really wanted to comment on specifically:

Kristi Harrison in the article writes:

This is a warning: If you're a lukewarm believer considering calling it a day on your faith, know that the warm, gooshy feeling you get after asking God to take care of your problems is irreplaceable.

I just want to point out that this is absolutely, unequivocally false.
That warm, gooshy feeling most certainly is replaceable without God. I've personally replaced it.
Is it replaceable for everyone and anyway? I don't know, I like to think so, though.
Is feeling that it is irreplaceable valid even if others can replace it? Absolutely yes. Feelings are always valid. They can be wrong... but they're always valid.

I've seen many people get frustrated and flip out when they feel they've lost this warm, gooshy feeling.
I've seen many people get completely content, satisfied and blissful when they get this warm, gooshy feeling.
I've never been witness to any description or experience that comes close to the warm, gooshy feeling I get when I take solace in the ideas I've described above in this section.

Do I have the best warm, gooshy feeling? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. How do you compare such a thing?

All I can say is that, again, it is absolutely, unequivocally false that this warm, gooshy feeling from God taking care of things is irreplaceable without God (or religion at all). I was religious, and now I have no religion at all... and I've replaced it with an even better warm, gooshy feeling (for me, anyway).

1. You Miss Your Best Friend

What the article says: Kristi talks about how God is always there, and believers are never alone.

What I think about it: My wife is my best friend. Even if she were to die, I'd always have the memories of our time together. She is always there with me, and I am never alone. On top of that, she's actually real, and I can try her food too when she orders something different for dinner.

Besides the fact that anyone can have a best friend without religion, there are other things going on here as well:

1 - Some people can find it creepy that God is always there, and you're "never alone." When you don't believe in religion, this creepy-factor disappears because you understand that it doesn't exist.

2 - If you feel comfort in the idea of having "someone else" know your deepest, darkest secrets or anything-and-everything about you and still love you... well, I really have found such a "someone else" in my wife. And I agree that such a person is extremely powerful and good to have around. I'd recommend finding such a person to anyone interested in such comforts.
Perhaps one day my wife will not be around and I still will be... Best friends come in all shapes and sizes though. More best friends can be found and connected with without replacing or dishonouring a previous best friend. It can be more difficult for some folks or situations with actual people involved... but, again, "difficult" does not equal "impossible."

3 - An idea of "God knowing" about certain things actually making a difference to your decisions or the way you are can be equally attained with "I honestly know." If you can be honest with yourself, and with personal reflection, it is quite possible to equal or surpass any advantages to thinking that "God knows" certain things.

Article Conclusion

What the article says: Kristi has a very frank paragraph about not being able to (currently) find comfort in science or reason and that things are very uncomfortable and weird for her in her journey of non-belief.

What I think about it: Kristi is at the very beginning of her journey of non-belief. Such serious worries and concerns as she expresses are expected and acknowledged as devastating. These facts, however daunting, do not indicate that her journey is over, or that such devastating issues cannot be overcome. The fact that many, many others have had similar, easier and harder journeys... and that many have built a foundation for a fulfilling spiritual life without religion or God is proof that such things are not impossible. They do, however, require focus and effort... as most of life's largest tasks require.

Edited by Stile, : Structure and organization


Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2017 4:08 PM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 168 of 418 (822019)
10-17-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Stile
10-17-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
That was an interesting article. This part stood out for me:
quote:
The ability to hand over your deepest problems to someone else is Christianity's killer app, one that has absolutely no equivalent in the secular world. I don't even know if there's an equivalent in any other religion, but I haven't investigated all of them that deeply. Christianity doesn't promise your life will be easy, but it promises that someone is looking out for you, has your best interests at heart, and wants you to succeed. And even if there's no hope for your life improving, your entire eternity will be amazing if you just follow Him.

I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, but I am afraid of losing any support He may offer.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 10-17-2017 12:06 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 10-18-2017 8:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 178 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3524
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 169 of 418 (822055)
10-18-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Thugpreacha
10-17-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:

I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, but I am afraid of losing any support He may offer.

This is a very interesting and multi-faceted issue.
I didn't get all the way into it with the article because there were other things to talk about. I'll try to get more in depth here:

"Support" is a nice word to use to summarize the whole idea of having a support network... a place where you know you'll be taken care of, safe and content. The "place" is also multi-faceted, there's usually a physical place (home, church, meeting-areas...) as well as a mental place in each of our mind's.

On one side, it's easy to see that many people easily have support from Jesus or Christianity or religion. It can be argued that this is the whole idea of community meetups, fellowship and congregation. In a similar vein of non-religious community, fellowship and congregation... it's also easy to see that many people have support from family or friends without Jesus or Christianity or religion.

The existence of one side and the other is easy to see that both exist, are equally easy/hard to acquire (during one's upbringing), and equally as helpful/rewarding/fulfilling.

The problem is switching from one to the other, or even from one to anything else.

It's not so much "hard to swap from Christianity into Atheism" as it is "hard to break away from the support network you've developed over the course of your entire life."

This difficulty itself is equal from Christians becoming Atheists as it is for Atheists becoming Christians.
It's not difficult for everyone, but it is for many.
The difficulty depends on how ingrained or isolated your support network really is.

What I'm saying is this:
If your support network is dedicated to a group of people that is also dedicated to your Christianity or Atheism... then it will be extremely difficult to break away from either one and rebuild a support network elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with "leaving Christianity" or even "leaving Atheism"... the point is that it's very difficult for anyone to break away from their life-long-ingrained support network.

It just so happens that, in general, religions revolve around this support network while things like Atheism do not. Therefore, someone leaving a religion (leaving Christianity) will have a much greater chance that they will also wind up having to leave their support network. A bunch of atheist friends, however, may have a greater chance of 'not caring' whether or not one friend starts believing in God... (if their atheism isn't all that important on their priority list of people-they-hang-out-with).

So, yes, getting back to your specific situation (sort of similar to the one in the article), it's very understandable that you would have great hesitations in breaking away from your support network, for obvious reasons.

Unfortunately (for helping you... fortunately for me...), my own support network was never ingrained into my religion.
So I do not have any personal experience to help me describe the situation.
When I stopped believing in God, and became an atheist, my family and friends didn't care. Some were already atheists, some were devout Christians. Some stayed wherever they were, others swapped in one direction or another. Within my support network, though... such an idea of 'being religious' or 'being atheist' isn't important... so my support network remained constant during my conversion.

Does this mean it's impossible for you to ever survive breaking away from your support network if you ever did think of moving in such a direction?

I can't say it's not impossible for you.
Many people die while having unresolved issues in their personal lives. Regrettably, such things happen and are a fact of this life. Whether or not such a fact implies you should or shouldn't even try... is up to you and you alone. I know what I'd do... but I'm not you

I can say, though, that in theory (and in practice for certain individuals) it certainly is still possible to rebuild a support-network that doesn't included God, Jesus or religion. It's not easy, though. It involves forming deep relationships with people you don't have deep relationships with right now. That takes focus and effort. It's along the lines of the age-old issue of "making new friends" while you're an adult. The stigma is that this is incredibly hard... that stigma makes it feel hard. When it feels hard to do.. it becomes hard to do.

But... a stigma is not the truth.
In my experience, a lot of people are very open to making long lasting, deep connections with new people as adults.
The child-like "I like candy... you like candy? We're best friends!!" methods do not really work... they come with a certain creepy factor.
But regularly joining in on social events (any work-related or hobby-related events you care to become associated with) will naturally ingrain you into certain friendships and, eventually, deep connections the longer and more dedicated you are to that group.

Just like being in a church for a long time and in a dedicated way.
You didn't have to tell the people of the church "Hey, I'm one of you now! We're a support network!" it grew along with your long time and dedication of remaining within that group.

The same sort of long time and dedication of remaining with any group will result in exactly the same sort of deep connections required for a fully-functioning, safe, secure, dependable support network.

It basically comes down to this:

Obviously, spending 40 years in the same church with the same people is going to be different than spending 2 weeks with some people who like to cook together and share recipes.

But, really, the opposite works just as well:

Spending 40 years cooking together and sharing recipes with the same people is going to be different than spending 2 weeks with some people who like to sing about Jesus.

The point is that "leaving Jesus's support" isn't the problem.
The problem is "leaving your support network," it just so happens that your support network revolves around Jesus.

That doesn't mean you can't even have another support network that doesn't revolve around Jesus.
But it also means you shouldn't expect something to match 40-years of dedication without giving it the same sort of time and dedication.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2017 4:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2017 12:13 PM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 170 of 418 (822062)
10-18-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Stile
10-18-2017 8:56 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
I don't think you quite understand what I mean. I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, as the girl did. I don't ever see that happening. What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available. I'm not looking for a human support network. I have not even been to church in 8 months. Unlike the girl in the article, I never really connected with believers the way that I connect to ...even EvC, for example. Also, unlike her, I have not doubted my belief. I'm just starting to realize that being responsible is as important as being a faithful believer.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 10-18-2017 8:56 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Stile, posted 10-18-2017 12:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3524
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 171 of 418 (822065)
10-18-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Thugpreacha
10-18-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:

What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available.

My response was an attempt to show that "help is available" with or without God, Jesus and religion.

I'm not looking for a human support network.

What sort of help are you afraid of losing?

My best interpretation of the general "help" you've mentioned so far is some sort of support-network.

If you mean something else, perhaps you could try to describe it?

Maybe you mean something along the lines of "losing your best friend" (losing the idea of having Jesus/God/religion with you at all times)?

The belief in Jesus/God/religion as help is equally valid as the belief in anything else as help.
That "anything else" may be real, imaginary, or simply believed (regardless of knowing if it actually exists or not) just as Jesus/God/religion is.

Such "help" could be attained from "the universe" or "Zeus" or "the memory of this person I think is amazing" or "the idea of a perfect being" or anything like that.

But, since I'm again guessing at what you mean by "help" I'm likely missing again.
Can you describe a bit more specifically what you mean by losing "available help?"

Or... maybe in a completely different frame of mind altogether... if you don't think you're losing your belief... what makes you think you're in trouble of losing whatever "help" you get from it right now anyway? Why wouldn't help still be available from your belief... if you're not losing your belief?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2017 12:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-19-2017 9:46 AM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 172 of 418 (823919)
11-19-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Stile
10-18-2017 12:40 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Stile writes:

What sort of help are you afraid of losing?

Quite honestly I think that I am afraid of losing my mother. She always helped me. I felt blissfully loved (and entitled) and once she is gone, I will have nothing and nobody who loved me so much.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Stile, posted 10-18-2017 12:40 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 11-22-2017 10:27 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3524
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 173 of 418 (824066)
11-22-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Thugpreacha
11-19-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:

Quite honestly I think that I am afraid of losing my mother. She always helped me. I felt blissfully loved (and entitled) and once she is gone, I will have nothing and nobody who loved me so much.

A difficult issue.
And one most people have to face at one point or another in their lives.

The continual search for peace, solace and acceptance.

The answers are the same as they've always been, though I admit they are never easy to achieve.

Hopefully you find what you need in your religion.
Others look in different places.

When it comes down to it - you have to try and understand what, specifically, it is you need... and then move in a direction that helps achieve those goals.

I would recommend the path of truth.
Accepting (as hard as that is) that your mother will die one day, as we all will.
Then figuring out what you need from that.
Do you need a replacement? (Not a mother-replacement, that's impossible... but more a void-filling replacement).
Do you need acceptance from someone you respect?
Do you need to forget the pain in the past?
Do you need unconditional love?
Do you need familiarity?
It could be many other things...
And, as well, it could be many different things at the same time.

Once you figure out what you need, it becomes a matter of making decisions that will help achieve those goals.
For instance, if someone needed something that is only provided by another human... deciding to stay inside and never talking to anyone is not a decision that will help them achieve such a goal.
...things like that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-19-2017 9:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Stile has responded

    
celestialGyoud
Member
Posts: 559
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 174 of 418 (853277)
05-24-2019 3:23 PM


Why believing is being seven times blind. See the answer now
*

Because Scripture as originally written is known by attributes, it is not known by belief.

Here is a paraphrased fragment of Scripture and how can You know it is accurate and true scripture without believing . . . You can ascertain because of the attributes that are and must be consistent. If there is consistency in the attributes then You will perceive it whenever You verify them:

Paraphrased scripture from the book of John: "... You do not see the wind, but you do not have to believe the wind is blowing. You can see with your eyes a candlestick that shines the light that I Am.
The word that the eyes did not see and the hands did not touch, ( יהוה / Yhwh ), has come into this world like a Seven-candlestick, in order that those who do not see might see, and those who are believers might keep on being seven times blind. For, if hearing and seeing the word are not enough for you to see then it's being blind twice, isn't it? And if a believer could ever admit that he does not see anything when he works up a strong belief then he could start seeing, but because he says: 'believing, we see!', his blindness increases seven times more ..."

.

*

.

Edited by celestialGyoud, : update

Edited by celestialGyoud, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-25-2019 9:06 AM celestialGyoud has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 175 of 418 (853284)
05-25-2019 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by celestialGyoud
05-24-2019 3:23 PM


Choose This Day Whom You Want In Authority
Scripture as originally written is known by attributes, it is not known by belief.
You frustrate me to no end. It is one thing to debate the validity of scripture with a critical thinker for I can respect their opinion regarding the fallibility of scripture vs the infallibility. I can understand their logical approach. You, on the other hand, are chock full of paganism and new age psychobabble which the church clearly sees as demonically inspired claptrap. I was so angry at initially reading your crap that I banned you for eternity until I thought better of it after a good nights sleep. (In AdminPhat mode)

I suppose that to be fair, Thugpreacha by definition should at least tolerate other belief systems no matter how satanically they come across to his discerning mind. Keep in mind, however, that as long as I am allowed to be a religious moderator here at this forum I will frame the paradigm and status flow in context to my own belief and authority. You are, of course, free to challenge my conclusions but keep in mind that in regards to Faith & Belief, this is my rodeo.

Paraphrased scripture from the book of John: "... You do not see the wind, but you do not have to believe the wind is blowing. You can see with your eyes a candlestick that shines the light that I Am.
The word that the eyes did not see and the hands did not touch, ( יהוה / Yhwh ), has come into this world like a Seven-candlestick, in order that those who do not see might see, and those who are believers might keep on being seven times blind. For, if hearing and seeing the word is not enough for you to see then it's being blind twice, isn't it? And if a believer could ever admit that he does not see anything when he works up a strong belief then he could start seeing, but because he says: 'believing, we see!', his blindness increases seven times more ..."
See, that is bullshit to me, plain and simple. Excuse my French. Critics may well say that the authors of John were redactors with an independent ulterior motive, but I will challenge that assertion even if it comes from reputed scholars. Reason being, they seek to discredit the inerrancy and authority of scripture. I would challenge you on several fronts. First, who gave you your flipping authority to freely squawk out your propaganda at this forum? Certainly not I. And in the name of Jesus, I take authority over any other mundane arrogant and lying spirit that says otherwise. So put that in your pipe and smoke it! I'm about fed up with your propaganda already so if you want to stay at this forum you best shut the hell up. And furthermore...to any others who wish to defend this right to reduce Faith & Belief to a relativistic position, fuck you too! I'll leave this forum in a heartbeat. I don't need any shit from anyone here regarding the inerrancy and authority of scripture. If you don't like it, one of us will go. And I'll let God decide who.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by celestialGyoud, posted 05-24-2019 3:23 PM celestialGyoud has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 05-25-2019 11:54 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 183 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2019 12:48 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 176 of 418 (853286)
05-25-2019 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by celestialGyoud
02-15-2017 1:06 PM


Re: a god made the folking deal: your belief in exchange for a ransom paid to himself
CrazyDiamond7aka IAM Lucifer writes:

Legion's biggest and most demonic lie ever told in your sacred bible was to convince the World that the means for them to be forgiven implied killing or sacrificing a person or a firstborn son, rather than just forgive. For the World so loved the god(s) to the point of killing a first-born son so that everyone who believed the price for their sins had been paid should believe also in the god.

. . . . .

Actually the only thing You can do for You to become friends with your heaven, that is within You, or other people's heaven is help the poor who live in your farm, town or city. Yet, people loved the dark of the beliefs in exchange for having the price for their sins paid at the cost of innocent blood because their deeds were evil

And the real I Am, being the Truth and Fidelity, would never declare or judge anyone righteous for his belief, which is evidence proving that there is a demonic nature in your sacred bible, that is the part that came from the lying pen of scribes and from the fathers of the beliefs or lies, and from re'Legion the devil himself who was made to be a specialist on camouflages that are made to make believe or simply not let You know what the truth is.

That is why there is a good purpose in the existence of a demonic nature in your sacred bible because people are given a chance to think by themselves, or think by their own heads, and even forget about ministers, elders, reverends, and fathers of the beliefs or lies. Also because in heavenly justice, it is like an election with free spontaneous will, people are given the chance to set apart the light from the gloom, all by themselves, without religion or any external influence, and then choose the good and reject the evil...

Utter bullocks, as Tangle would say. Im only letting you even talk due to freedom of speech, but you won't clutter up the airwaves for long. If our pagan liberal government ever allowed you people equal time with the genuine preachers, we would know that the end was near. At that point, I would be in favor of shutting all of us up publically...if only to prevent your crap from offending the ears of my family. (Yes, everyone...Phat is having a meltdown this morning...don't ask me why. Something about what Celestial Gourd says strikes a raw nerve in me.)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-15-2017 1:06 PM celestialGyoud has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 05-25-2019 11:59 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 184 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2019 12:53 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 177 of 418 (853287)
05-25-2019 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Stile
11-22-2017 10:27 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat,in 2017 writes:

What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available. I'm not looking for a human support network. I have not even been to church in 8 months.

Make that a couple of years, apart from the past two weeks. Just to add a bit of context tio the state of my mental health, I have had some deep experiences in church recently where I quite literally burst into tears and cried for several minutes. I conclude based upon that evidence coupled with todays anger that was directed at Celestial Gordo that my emotions are finally being cathartic and raw. Whether or not this is a good thing or not remains to be determined when I see my counselor. Boy will he love these revelations!

Stile writes:

What sort of help are you afraid of losing?

My best interpretation of the general "help" you've mentioned so far is some sort of support-network.

If you mean something else, perhaps you could try to describe it?

Maybe you mean something along the lines of "losing your best friend" (losing the idea of having Jesus/God/religion with you at all times)?

The belief in Jesus/God/religion as help is equally valid as the belief in anything else as help.
That "anything else" may be real, imaginary, or simply believed (regardless of knowing if it actually exists or not) just as Jesus/God/religion is.

Such "help" could be attained from "the universe" or "Zeus" or "the memory of this person I think is amazing" or "the idea of a perfect being" or anything like that.

After my recent experience at church, I can only say that my tears were tears of joy for the presence of Jesus. I have less of a connection with the members of the church...to me they are simple people with a childlike faith...which is neither a good nor bad thing...it simply is. I have little in common with them apart from Jesus. My problem is that the folks who I do otherwise feel comfortable around are themselves not believers or at least not extroverted ones. If only I could combine the simplistic trusting love for Jesus with the vibrant, intellectually stimulating minds of the rest of you, I would have my support group.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 11-22-2017 10:27 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Stile, posted 05-27-2019 3:13 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 178 of 418 (853288)
05-25-2019 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Thugpreacha
10-17-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
But are you really handing over your problems to another?

I think of the quarterback who thanked Jesus after the winning touchdown. If the quarterback had stumbled at the 10-yard line, would the thanks have turned to, "I would have won that game if Jesus hadn't tripped me!"

Are the benefits given to you, or is it that time and chance overtake us all?

Edited by Sarah Bellum, : Typo correction: change "gave" to "game"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2017 4:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-25-2019 9:38 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 179 of 418 (853289)
05-25-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Sarah Bellum
05-25-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
I would argue that time overtakes us all, but I would also argue that chance is a myth except in terms of strict numerical probability. With me, God is never a numerical probability. God is a certainty. Of course, you then may argue that people only give credit to God when the outcome is favorable. Not too many people this side of Job ever mentioned that we should give credit to God when we fall on our face as well as when we score the winning touchdown.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Sarah Bellum, posted 05-25-2019 9:47 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 180 of 418 (853291)
05-25-2019 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Thugpreacha
05-25-2019 9:38 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Is chance even possible with a coin flip?

Assuming the existence of an all-knowing deity leads to the conclusion that the flip of a coin is purely deterministic, doesn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-25-2019 9:38 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
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