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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 256 of 418 (853442)
05-27-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 1:32 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
Obviously, good Doctor. People believe what they believe for a variety of reasons. You guys point out that leprechauns are every bit as likely (thus as rational) as is God...but I would argue that I felt something with God that I did not ever feel with Leprechauns. I can't argue against ringos premise that there is no difference from an objective point of view but am essentially defending my point based on subjective experience. Quid pro Quo, Dr.Lector?(Jones)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 1:32 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 2:15 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 05-27-2019 2:18 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 260 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2019 2:20 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2250
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 257 of 418 (853443)
05-27-2019 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by foreveryoung
05-27-2019 1:28 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
These 66 books refer to actual places and people and events.

So Ireland isn't an actual place?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by foreveryoung, posted 05-27-2019 1:28 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 9:31 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 280 by foreveryoung, posted 05-28-2019 1:40 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1876
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 258 of 418 (853444)
05-27-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Thugpreacha
05-27-2019 1:57 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
but I would argue that I felt something with God that I did not ever feel with Leprechauns.

that's because you didn't believe in leprechauns hard enough.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-27-2019 1:57 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Theodoric, posted 05-27-2019 4:16 PM DrJones* has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16804
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 259 of 418 (853445)
05-27-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Thugpreacha
05-27-2019 1:57 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
Phat writes:

...but I would argue that I felt something with God that I did not ever feel with Leprechauns.


And other people have subjective feelings about other things, including other gods. That's why it's a bad idea to base your sense of reality on subjective feelings.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-27-2019 1:57 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 260 of 418 (853447)
05-27-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Thugpreacha
05-27-2019 1:57 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
Phat writes:

People believe what they believe for a variety of reasons.

Yes, that should tell you something.

You guys point out that leprechauns are every bit as likely (thus as rational) as is God...

No, we don't believe in leprechauns either, or Treasure Island. We're just pointing out that there's nothing special about your book or your beliefs. They're just irrational, unevidenced, beliefs.

but I would argue that I felt something with God that I did not ever feel with Leprechauns.

Of course, you believe in a Christian god not leprechauns. Muslims would say exactly the same thing. That should also tell you something.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-27-2019 1:57 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3564
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 261 of 418 (853448)
05-27-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by foreveryoung
05-26-2019 10:25 PM


foreveryoung writes:

You can have these things without God but not all purposes or life meanings are equally valuable if you are seeking something that will give you the ability to withstand suffering when it inevitably comes your way.

I completely agree.

I would add a bit more clarity, though.

The idea that "not all purposes or life meanings are equally valuable" is useless in some generic absolute sense.
Unless you are able to provide a reasonable measuring system that accurately and objectively identifies how 'valuable' different life meanings or purposes actually are?

The problem is that purpose and life meanings are subjective - they are different for different people.
What may be extremely powerful for you, can be useless to another.
What may be extremely powerful for me, can be useless to you.

You seem to be implying that belief in the God of the Bible has provided you, in your life, the most powerful, purposeful meaning you've ever experienced.

I think that's great.
I also think you should continue to pursue such a thing, it's kind of rare.

However, I've tried it - and it's useless to me.
I get no meaning or purpose from an external entity. Especially one who's existence itself is... questionable. But even granting God's existence and His all-powerful-ness... I get no strength from Him no matter how sincerely I ask from Him or Jesus Christ.

I do, however, find the most powerful, purposeful meaning I've ever experienced from my family and focusing on loving them and my friends.

Which is greater? Mine or yours?
In an objective sense - I don't care, really.
I'm me and "value" is subjective. Therefore I'm the "highest authority" on what is valuable to me.

I'm constantly asking God and Jesus Christ to accept me... but they don't seem to respond, so it appears to be out of my reach.
Therefore, in the subjective sense that actually matters - the most powerful, purposeful meaning I am able to obtain is what I gain from my family and friends.

It's highly unlikely any of those purposes will give you the ability to withstand severe setbacks in life unless perhaps you abide by some philosophy like stoicism and stoicism is a poor way to live compared to a God inspired purpose.

It works for me.
And I don't abide by stoicism, either - I don't think so, anyway - I'm not fully informed on what "stoicism" would entirely entail.

I have withstood extremely sever setbacks in life. No God helped. And no God was required in order for me to make it though.

But lets say you're right... maybe believing in God does help people withstand severe setbacks in life more than other things.
What would we expect to see?

For the most part - we would expect to see some sort of significantly identifiable number of "God of the Bible Believers" who are:
-mentally stronger
-happier people
-more respected by their peers for their wisdom and ability to help

But do we see this? Anywhere?
I've never been made aware - do you know something I don't?

As far as I can tell - "God of the Bible Believers" are just like the rest of us.
-they are equally mentally strong. Some are very strong, some are very weak - just like non-God-Believers
-they are equally happy people. Some are very happy, some are very sad - just like non-God-Believers
-they are equally respected people. Some are very respected, some are very despicable - just like non-God-Believers

It seems like you can continue to claim "a better purpose" or "more meaning" as much as you like.
But - the proof is in the reality: No group of "God of the Bible Believers" is significantly doing any better than any group of "non-God-Believers."

Therefore - you're wrong about the purpose in life from believing in the God of the Bible being "better."

You very well may be right that it's the best - for you personally.
But this means nothing more than that - you found what works for you.

I suggest that all people should find what works for them.
For some, it will be believing in the God of the Bible - these people should believe in God.
For others, it will be something else - these people should pursue the alternative that will work better for them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by foreveryoung, posted 05-26-2019 10:25 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3564
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 262 of 418 (853449)
05-27-2019 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Thugpreacha
05-25-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Thugpreacha writes:

I can only say that my tears were tears of joy for the presence of Jesus.

I think this is the "feeling of enlightenment" that so many chase after in so many different ways.

Some seek thrills through dangerous activities.
Some meditate.
Some reach levels of peak performance or draining their physical strength.
Some ponder how the universe works.

The methodology of getting there seems to be different for different people. And even the ability to get there. Some can enter such a state almost at will. Others may not even be capable of getting it once in their whole life.

If only I could combine the simplistic trusting love for Jesus with the vibrant, intellectually stimulating minds of the rest of you, I would have my support group.

What is preventing you from doing this?
Or, perhaps... what do you mean by "combine?"

Doesn't the church still teach that the church, itself, is mostly meaningless? And it's Jesus and God that contain all the meaning? And they are able to follow you everywhere and anywhere?
Why can't they follow you when you have intellectually stimulating conversations?

Remember - a "support group" isn't all-powerful. It's just a bunch of other people. They can fail too. They can be wrong or sad or foolish.
A support group isn't a fail-safe. It's a crutch. It's called a "support" group. Not a "get-out-of-jail-free" group.
The idea is to understand reality and find a way to exist within it as well as possible.
Not create a fantasy and try to hide there as much as possible until reality crashes into it again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6390
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 263 of 418 (853451)
05-27-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by foreveryoung
05-27-2019 12:09 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
Uhh, no you didn't.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by foreveryoung, posted 05-27-2019 12:09 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6390
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 264 of 418 (853452)
05-27-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 2:15 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
And he probably ate a bad burrito.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by DrJones*, posted 05-27-2019 2:15 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1876
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


(1)
Message 265 of 418 (853455)
05-27-2019 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Theodoric
05-27-2019 4:16 PM


Re: All praise Her Noodliness
or a really good burrito, I've had some food that might convince me of divine beings.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Theodoric, posted 05-27-2019 4:16 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31056
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 266 of 418 (853456)
05-27-2019 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by foreveryoung
05-27-2019 1:20 PM


foreveryoung writes:

He can act within space and time as he did with adam and eve. But, at the same time he was "walking" with the first couple, he was also speaking to joan of arc in 1428 in dom'remy France through his Angel's. Acting in one particular space and time does not rule out his existence outside of space and time. If he was confined to space and time, he would still be walking around on the planet. It's pretty hard to miss a supreme being in his essence.

Again, that is simply the dogma of your Cult and has absolutely no Biblical basis. You are just parroting word salad and nonsense.

Remember, it is you who claims the support of the Bible and nowhere does the Bible say anything about Joan of Arc. Nor is speaking through some other agency evidence to support anything about any GOD. Allah has the same evidential basis as what you are claiming. Allah spoke to MuḼammad through an angel.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 418 (853457)
05-27-2019 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
05-27-2019 11:54 AM


Re: God is all powerful and outside time and space
You can't use the book as evidence for the book.

I'm not using it as evidence. I'm pointing out how traditionalists understand it, as a whole in which all the parts fit together and modify each other, and this is demonstrated by Peter's explanation of how messages from God were given "in old time" -- through the Holy Spirit. And this view of it contrasts with jar's view which fragments it into separate books and gives a different length for them which I assume is according to different canons which were developed down the centuries. So in contrast I'm describing how today's traditionalists see it and you can take it or leave it as you are persuaded.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 05-27-2019 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 05-27-2019 6:59 PM Faith has responded
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 05-28-2019 11:39 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31056
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 268 of 418 (853461)
05-27-2019 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
05-27-2019 6:37 PM


Re: God is all powerful and outside time and space
Faith writes:

And this view of it contrasts with jar's view which fragments it into separate books and gives a different length for them which I assume is according to different canons which were developed down the centuries.

Again Faith, it is not my view but rather reality and fact. There are different Bibles and that is fact. The shortest recognizes only those books which would have been Canonized at the time Jesus lived and so is just 5 books, the first 5 books. Yet it is still "The Bible". The largest includes over 80 books. Yet it is still the Bible.

No one questions what "Traditionalist" believe. But traditional Christians of different sects also believe what you call "The Bible" is simply wrong.

But that is still not the point. You still have never and cannot address the fact that all versions of the Bible do contain contradictions, factual errors, myth and fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 6:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 05-27-2019 7:05 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 418 (853462)
05-27-2019 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
05-27-2019 6:59 PM


Re: God is all powerful and outside time and space
As I said, there is jar's view and my view, as far as this forum goes, and you may agree with either of us or neither of us. There is nothing more to say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 05-27-2019 6:59 PM jar has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 270 of 418 (853477)
05-27-2019 8:39 PM


Well, thank you. Both of you.

I look forward to the next round.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
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