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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 331 of 418 (853742)
05-31-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by GDR
05-31-2019 11:39 AM


GDR writes:

That is your belief and my belief is that we do.

Okay.

So which of us is receiving a greater benefit?
How could we possibly tell?

Again, the original question assumes the existence of God.

1. I don't think it does.
2. I'm the writer of the original question.
3. Who cares what the original question may or may not have assumed? Your question is not the same question as the original, is it?

I agree that "If God exists, and the only way for people to exist is through God... then existing is a benefit only available through God."
But that's a silly, useless, circular point to make, don't you think?

Wouldn't a deeper, more significant question be whether or not your believing in God that we exist is 'better' than my not-believing-in-God that we exist?

I think it is, and I don't see how we can come to any other conclusion than "they're the same."

Your way is better for you.
My way is better for me.

Nothing 'greater' about it in either direction.
Which is the point of this entire thread.

Edited by Stile, : Added initial quote

Edited by Stile, : Because grammar good I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:39 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:17 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16674
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 332 of 418 (853743)
05-31-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by GDR
05-31-2019 11:28 AM


GDR writes:

Does he wish he had never been born? The fact that he had the life that he did was a benefit.


Maybe we should be talking about a net benefit here. After all, a lot of people do wish they had never been born.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:28 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 333 of 418 (853746)
05-31-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Tangle
05-31-2019 10:02 AM


Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
tangle writes:

There's obviously no benefits from god, if there were everybody would believe in him.

But the whole point is to allow us the freedom to question, doubt, and reject His benefits.

Which leads to the questions:

Why would God only help those who believed in Him and surrendered their own stubborn freedom to doubt and disagree?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 334 of 418 (853748)
05-31-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Stile
05-31-2019 11:46 AM


Stile writes:

Okay.

So which of us is receiving a greater benefit?
How could we possibly tell?


Either way it is simply belief. It isn't about knowing in the scientific sense. There is a single mom in our church with a little guy who is severely autistic. When I look at how she loves and cares for that little guy I see God in that, I don't see a chance collection of mindless particles. I don't say that it proves my point but it is good enough for me.

Stile writes:

. I don't think it does.
2. I'm the writer of the original question.
3. Who cares what the original question may or may not have assumed? Your question is not the same question as the original, is it?

I agree that "If God exists, and the only way for people to exist is through God... then existing is a benefit only available through God."
But that's a silly, useless, circular point to make, don't you think?

The original only says: "what benefits are only available through God?". It does not say: "what benefits are only available through God if such an entity exists?"

Stile writes:

Wouldn't a deeper, more significant question be whether or not your believing in God that we exist is 'better' than my not-believing-in-God that we exist?

I think it is, and I don't see how we can come to any other conclusion than "they're the same."

Your way is better for you.
My way is better for me.

Nothing 'greater' about it in either direction.
Which is the point of this entire thread.


I agree about it being a better question. My answer would be that believing is a better conclusion.

If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless. You live you die, you procreate but in the end there will be a nuclear holocaust, the sun will burn out, we'll get hit by an asteroid or whatever, but this world will come to an end and ultimately it is pointless.

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence. When we work and donate to impoverished countries, when we campaign to stop pollution etc. it does ultimately matter. Our lives do have an ultimate purpose and I'm not just talking about a personal afterlife.

Also, I am not suggesting that only Christians or theists of any label live altruistically. I have an atheistic member of the family. I have told her that she is more Christ like than many Christians I know.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 11:46 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Stile, posted 05-31-2019 1:50 PM GDR has responded
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 1:59 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 335 of 418 (853750)
05-31-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by ringo
05-31-2019 11:50 AM


ringo writes:

Maybe we should be talking about a net benefit here. After all, a lot of people do wish they had never been born.


I'm sure there are. Tangle's example is a case where his faith is providing comfort as he suffers through a very unpleasant death. I'm not holding that up as proof of God, but it is giving him a peace that he wouldn't have otherwise.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:26 PM GDR has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16674
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 336 of 418 (853751)
05-31-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by GDR
05-31-2019 12:21 PM


GDR writes:

I'm not holding that up as proof of God, but it is giving him a peace that he wouldn't have otherwise.


On the contrary, he could have the same comfort just by being a positive person with no reference to God at all. The comfort is entirely internal, so it can not be cited as a benefit only available through God. Even if God does exist, He really has nothing to do with that comfort.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:21 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:38 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 337 of 418 (853754)
05-31-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by ringo
05-31-2019 12:26 PM


ringo writes:

On the contrary, he could have the same comfort just by being a positive person with no reference to God at all. The comfort is entirely internal, so it can not be cited as a benefit only available through God. Even if God does exist, He really has nothing to do with that comfort.

Maybe, but in this case it sounds like this is his source of comfort, and we can't know what he would be like without it.

For that matter we can't know whether or not the person who finds comfort simply because they are a positive person is that way because of God, whether they believe in Him or not.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 12:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 338 of 418 (853758)
05-31-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by GDR
05-31-2019 11:28 AM


GDR writes:

Not really. The original question assumes the existence of an involved God ergo life itself is a benefit.

Well that's an example of a hypothetical point not really worth making.

Does he wish he had never been born?

At some points over the last few days I'm sure he has. But otherwise no. He certainly wishes for a quick and pain free death - which your god (and your religion) is not allowing.

The fact that he had the life that he did was a benefit.

Perhaps but that has nothing to do with god.

Yes, it is a fact that physical entropy results in suffering,

Right, so god is responsible for the benefit of life but physical entropy is responsible for suffering. Cute.

but also in the hearts of people like yourself I believe that there is a God given desire to do all that can be done to alleviate the suffering.

It's a human not a god given desire and its primitive religious thinking that's preventing us ending the suffering in a humane way.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 11:28 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16674
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 339 of 418 (853760)
05-31-2019 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by GDR
05-31-2019 12:38 PM


GDR writes:

For that matter we can't know whether or not the person who finds comfort simply because they are a positive person is that way because of God, whether they believe in Him or not.


That's exactly my point. If we can't know the "actual" source of his comfort, we can't realistically claim that it's "only" available through God.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:38 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 340 of 418 (853765)
05-31-2019 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
05-31-2019 12:17 PM


GDR writes:

Either way it is simply belief. It isn't about knowing in the scientific sense.

That's fine for this thread.
Of course, if you want to get into How Stile Knows God Does Not Exist... you can always take it over to this thread:

I Know That God Does Not Exist

I agree about it being a better question.

Thank-you for accepting my interpretation of my own words.
Now we can move along.

My answer would be that believing is a better conclusion.

How so?
It seems that believing is only a better conclusion for GDR and those who think similarly enough to the way GDR thinks.
But it does not seem to be a better conclusion for Stile, or those who think similarly enough to the way Stile thinks.

If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless. You live you die, you procreate but in the end there will be a nuclear holocaust, the sun will burn out, we'll get hit by an asteroid or whatever, but this world will come to an end and ultimately it is pointless.

...according to GDR.
But, according to Stile, I have no such fears of pointlessness.
In fact, I find more pointlessness in being created by a God than I do in determining my own purpose in life.

I agree that if you have such fears... then believing in God can be a benefit for you.
But if I don't have such fears... why do I need such a "benefit?"

If I have similar fears about ultimate purpose - such as "If I was created by a God, that really turns this life into a bit of a mouse-and-cheese maze... but I want to be more than that - I want to be completely free to create my own purpose - free of all Creator-Gods"
-Then believing in God is actually detrimental to me.
-And by creating my own purpose, and not involving God in any of it - I obtain the same benefit for myself that you receive from God for yourself.

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.

You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.

When we work and donate to impoverished countries, when we campaign to stop pollution etc. it does ultimately matter.

I fully agree with this statement - although I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.

Our lives do have an ultimate purpose and I'm not just talking about a personal afterlife.

Again - I fully agree.
And again - I do not involve God or any Creator in any way.

So what is the benefit here that cannot be obtained without God?
I don't see any.
I just see a man identifying that GDR, himself, would have less benefit without God - but this same man is unable to comprehend that, perhaps, not everyone thinks the same way he does.

I take it you wouldn't be surprised if you and I have two different favourite colours?
Why then, do you appear so unable to understand that you and I have two different favourite solutions for life's big unknowns?

Also, I am not suggesting that only Christians or theists of any label live altruistically.

I didn't think you were.

I have an atheistic member of the family. I have told her that she is more Christ like than many Christians I know.

That's nice to know, but doesn't affect my thoughts about the matter in any way.
"I have black friends" doesn't make anyone any more or less of a racist - you're a racists if and only if you hate groups of people for simply being in that group.
"Having an atheist in the family" doesn't make anyone any more or less willing to identify Christians as morally superior to atheists - you only do so if you think Christians are morally superior to atheists.

And, if you thought such - I would assume that would be your first message in this thread anyway (that a benefit obtained through God would be 'moral superiority.')

Edited by Stile, : Gramma lamma


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:48 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16674
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 341 of 418 (853766)
05-31-2019 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
05-31-2019 12:17 PM


GDR writes:

If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless.


I think "meaningless" is preferable to a "meaning" imposed by an alien overlord.

The "meaning" in a cow's life is to be food for us. Don't you think a cow would prefer to find its own meaning?


Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 05-31-2019 12:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-01-2019 3:35 AM ringo has responded
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 6:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 342 of 418 (853817)
06-01-2019 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by ringo
05-31-2019 1:59 PM


Did it ever occur to you that this so-called alien could actually help you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 05-31-2019 1:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 06-01-2019 11:50 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16674
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 343 of 418 (853830)
06-01-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Thugpreacha
06-01-2019 3:35 AM


Phat writes:

Did it ever occur to you that this so-called alien could actually help you?


Does it occur to the cow that we are "helping" it?

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-01-2019 3:35 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4824
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 344 of 418 (853850)
06-01-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Tangle
05-31-2019 12:46 PM


Tangle writes:

Right, so god is responsible for the benefit of life but physical entropy is responsible for suffering. Cute.

I'm not blaming entropy as entropy is mindless. It just is. Suffering from non-human sources seems to be a result of the fact that we live in a world that is subject to the vicissitudes of a world within time. This is the way the world is, and sure, you can claim that a loving creator god could not have allowed for suffering. It's a good argument.

However, it is my contention that entropy is a necessary feature of this world and that a loving deity has given us as humans the job of doing all that we can to mitigate suffering, whether the suffering is caused by humans or not.

Tangle writes:

It's a human not a god given desire and its primitive religious thinking that's preventing us ending the suffering in a humane way.

I don't want to get embroiled in an argument about euthanasia but I would just say this. It isn't my religion that makes me opposed to it. If it was simply about people like your friend that would be one thing. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be unintended consequences. As the population ages there will be more and more pressure put on people to "do the right thing" as they are past their "best sell by date". Offspring, pushing mentally confused parents to be euthanized so that they can inherit sooner rather than later. It is a very slippery slope. Another would be the pressure to euthanize the mentally handicapped. The last was a feature of Nazism. We are very capable of going down that road.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2019 12:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 06-01-2019 5:30 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2019 6:06 PM GDR has responded
 Message 349 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2019 6:32 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 345 of 418 (853854)
06-01-2019 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:07 PM


Suffering is the result of sin. Same with entropy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:07 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
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