Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 4:55 AM
24 online now:
caffeine, Faith (2 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,985 Year: 9,021/19,786 Month: 1,443/2,119 Week: 203/576 Day: 6/98 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
2324
25
262728Next
Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 361 of 418 (853917)
06-02-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by GDR
06-01-2019 6:02 PM


GDR writes:

However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.


That's your own white-washed version. It isn't what most Christians believe. It isn't what Jesus said.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 6:02 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:35 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 362 of 418 (853935)
06-02-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Tangle
06-02-2019 11:51 AM


Tangle writes:

The point, of course, is that god, according to your belief, can create a place without suffering. So why build one with?

Frankly I have no idea of whether or not God could have created existence from scratch where everyone would always make the loving choice. However, if He could and if He did, it would be a world of moral robots. If however we have already made the choice of wanting a world based exclusively on the "Golden Rule" then it is another matter entirely.
Tangle writes:

You're a giant bag of paradoxes! It's wrong but you'd campaign for it?

I did not say that I would campaign for it. I did say that it would be selfish of me to campaign for it, with the obvious implication being that I wouldn't do that,as it would be wrong for me to do so.

GDR writes:

Interesting that all of a sudden you are the one to decide what is Christian.

Tangle writes:

I'm just as much a Christian as you are. I was baptised a Christian, I have Christian values and know what the book says about it. I just reject the god bit like you reject the Garden of Eden etc bit. I'm a cultural Christian.

Fair enough, but I don't feel that either one of us are an authority on what is Christian and what isn't. I completely accept that you are a cultural Christian although I don't see that baptism has anything to do with that. I don't see though that being a cultural Christian is the same thing as being a Christian. It seems to me that being a "Christian" does mean that one accepts some basic tenets of the faith, beyond the Golden Rule.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2019 11:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 3:24 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 363 of 418 (853936)
06-02-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by ringo
06-02-2019 2:31 PM


GDR writes:

However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.

ringo writes:

That's your own white-washed version. It isn't what most Christians believe. It isn't what Jesus said.

Jesus boiled down all of the laws into one basic commandment, and that is we are called to love one anther. How can someone command me to love my neighbour? He may be a jerk. You can't just command someone to love in the same way that you can command someone to not commit murder. It is all about developing hearts that desire to choose the loving thing and reject the selfish thing.

The commandment to love is not the same as the commandment to not to kill even though it would include that. Love in this case is about always wanting the best for someone, and being prepared to do something about it, even at a cost to ourselves. It isn't about something that I can do or not do specifically but about having a heart that essentially loves love and hates hate.

We do however have the choice to reject that model and live lives based on looking out for number one.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 06-02-2019 2:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 06-03-2019 11:41 AM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 364 of 418 (853953)
06-03-2019 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
06-02-2019 6:17 PM


GDR writes:

Frankly I have no idea of whether or not God could have created existence from scratch where everyone would always make the loving choice.

He's god, of course he could.
But this insistence that the only way you can have choice is to also have evil and suffering is silly. But if it is the only way, why would a loving god do it to us? It makes him evil.

However, if He could and if He did, it would be a world of moral robots.

You realise that that makes heaven a place full of moral robots?
And, btw, what's so wrong with a place where evil does not exist?

Fair enough, but I don't feel that either one of us are an authority on what is Christian and what isn't. I completely accept that you are a cultural Christian although I don't see that baptism has anything to do with that.

In the version of Christianity that I belonged to, you can't get to heaven without being baptised. (In itself an evil idea of course.) So I guess I got lucky.

I don't see though that being a cultural Christian is the same thing as being a Christian. It seems to me that being a "Christian" does mean that one accepts some basic tenets of the faith, beyond the Golden Rule.

You say that neither of us are an authority on what a Christian is, then tell me that there are basic tenets. And, of course they will be your tenets not, say, Faith's or mine.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 365 of 418 (853966)
06-03-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by GDR
06-01-2019 10:30 PM


The slippery slope argument is a logically fallacious argument, Either provide evidence to back up a reason to think A leads to B or the argument is invalid.
Your abortion comment completely destroys your argument. The rate of abortion per 1000 births is at its lowest level since Roe v. Wade. Data is an amazing thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/..._statistics_in_the_United_States
Your infanticide comment also shows your utter lack of seriousness on the subject. He is one person and what he said was unclear and inartful, but he did not advocate for infanticide.
https://www.snopes.com/...eck/trump-northam-abortion-execute

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 10:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 366 of 418 (853969)
06-03-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by GDR
06-01-2019 5:48 PM


GDR writes:

However, I would contend as a Christian that I am only able to choose the loving thing because God loved me first and that any loving thing I am able to do is just that I am reflecting God's love into the situation. I would also add that I strongly disagree that the point of Christianity is personal salvation. The point of Christianity is personal vocation. Yes, the Biblical message talks about the renewal of all things under Christ, but where you or I fit into that is God's business and not mine. Our vocation is simply to be loving stewards over creation.

Fair enough... and what is the benefit from all this?
I would assume the benefit is that you feel you are "doing what you're supposed to be doing" or that you feel "like you fit into this strange world as you find your place."

Such benefits do not require God.
I obtain such benefits by creating my own purpose - without involving God at all.

GDR writes:

However if there is a loving God as personified in Jesus then there is a point to our existence.

Stile writes:

You forgot the words "...for GDR."
This actually lowers "the point of Stile's existence." It makes things worse for me.


How can it make things worse for you(?)

Like I said - obtaining "a point to my existence" through something external such as "because there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" reduces life (according to my subjective thoughts/feelings/experiences) to a mouse-and-cheese maze.

I'm the mouse (I exist), I'm supposed to chase the cheese (the point to my existence because there is a loving God as personified in Jesus.)

This is not meaningful to me.
This is following instructions to me.
A robot can follow instructions.
I can think for myself and create my own ideas.

For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "cheese."
For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "maze."
For me, it is more powerful if I create my own "mouse" (my own mental architecture) even.

Therefore... obtaining a "point to my existence" because "there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" lowers the point of Stile's existence.
Therefore... even if this was true - I would have to reject this purpose and obtain my own.

Perhaps the one I develop will be similar - perhaps not.
The point is that it comes from me... it benefits Stile greatly. But if it comes from someone else (God, Jesus... anyone...) it lowers the point of Stile's existence.
(According to Stile.)
And... since Stile is me... I am the only one that matters concerning my own subjective issues like "purpose" and "feeling positive benefits from things."

If I can assume that you are, or have been a loving parent in your life, then isn't it better that that act of love has a positive effect on creation both now and into an eternal renewal of creation, than simply the effect it has on your descendants for a few generations?

Absolutely not.
This is true for many "acts of love" - yes.
But this idea of creating humans - thinking, imagining, idea-creating beings - with a specific purpose in mind... that is not "an act of love" towards Stile.
It may very well be an act of love towards GDR and many others.
But it is, actually, an act of oppression towards Stile and many others.

A parent's job is to prepare their children for life so that their children can have their own life independent of the parent - make their own choices, discover their own priorities, develop their own purpose. Only then can the child (hopefully) return to the parent and have a real loving relationship - one that is freely pursued by both parties. Anything less... anything involving direction from the parent onto what the child's priorities "should be" leads into an act of control and pride from the parent.

What would be truly great (for Stile), is if "that act of love" (a loving God as personified in Jesus) was not done in order to provide "a point to our existence..." but was simply done so that we could exist "however we so choose." Like those who died in WWI and WWII - attempting to provide freedom for us. Not a specific type of freedom... but whatever freedom we decide on as individual people who can make our own choices.

For Stile - that is a far greater love than a love that comes attached with an intended purpose.
I much prefer love with no strings attached rather than love with conditions.

I think that the argument can be made that many people, such as Tangle's friend, do find solace and comfort from the belief in a specific deity, in this case the Christian god. That is a benefit for many although not for you.

Absolutely.

I've agreed to this many times.
Belief in a God can be a strong benefit for GDR or Tangle's friend, or anyone else who thinks in a similar fashion.
It's just not a strong benefit for Stile.

But... what is the actual benefit?
Strength of character?
Consolation in times of deep trouble?
A calm mind in times of deep confusion or pressure?

Those benefits may be obtainable for GDR through God.
They are not obtainable for Stile through God.

But... those benefits are not "only available through God."

Stile obtains those benefits by other means.

I have strength of character.
I have consolation in times of deep trouble.
I have a calm mind in times of deep confusion or pressure.

All without involving God.
I obtain such benefits through understanding that some situations are out of my control, and the best way to deal with them is to do what I can - or accept that I cannot do what I cannot do.

GDR writes:

Ultimately though it all boils down to Pilate's big question.

I think, here, you've started talking about something else.
I'm not sure the "it" you refer to here has anything to do with "what benefits are only available through God."

What is truth?

I don't find that to be a particularly difficult question.
Truth is reality - that which actually exists.

The big question is actually "how do we identify truth?"

Is there a good and loving god? Did Jesus perfectly embody the wisdom and nature of God? Did that God resurrect Jesus?

These are not large questions to me at all.
If fact, they are incredibly insignificant questions.

If they were answered in one direction or the other - it would not alter much about my state of mind or my personality at all.
Sort of like the search for extraterrestrial life that's ongoing... it's interesting, and something to discuss around the water-cooler at work.
But answers in one direction or the other isn't going to change the way I love my family or prioritize loving others over hurting others. My "checklist" in my mind on how to make decisions isn't really affected one way or another.

If what I believe by faith to be true then there are benefits, including life itself, that are only available through God.

I still admit that if God created life and humans and He was the only one who could do so - then living is a benefit from God.
Just as if Odin created life and humans and He was the only one who could do so - then living is a benefit from Odin.

...but those are some really big "ifs."
Both equally as unlikely, as well.

Of course, even if true, once we go beyond that... within living our lives... there still doesn't seem to be any benefits that are only available through God - and so the core of my question would remain anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by GDR, posted 06-01-2019 5:48 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 2:20 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 367 of 418 (853973)
06-03-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by GDR
06-02-2019 6:35 PM


GDR writes:

How can someone command me to love my neighbour? He may be a jerk. You can't just command someone to love in the same way that you can command someone to not commit murder.


You can if there's an "or else" attached. And that's exactly what Jesus said: Love your neighbour and you inherit the kingdom. Don't love your neighbour and you go to everlasting torment.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by GDR, posted 06-02-2019 6:35 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 4:48 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 368 of 418 (853980)
06-03-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Tangle
06-03-2019 3:24 AM


Tangle writes:

He's god, of course he could.

...and you know that how?
Tangle writes:

But this insistence that the only way you can have choice is to also have evil and suffering is silly.

If good is the only choice then it isn't a choice.
Tangle writes:

But if it is the only way, why would a loving god do it to us? It makes him evil.

In order to wind up with a world who freely choose the good or loving option, this world with it's freedom to choose is necessary.

Tangle writes:

You realise that that makes heaven a place full of moral robots?

I don't pretend to have any knowledge about heaven, which again I don't view as the final destination. The Biblical theme is the re-creation of all things.
Tangle writes:

And, btw, what's so wrong with a place where evil does not exist?

Absolutely nothing.

Tangle writes:

In the version of Christianity that I belonged to, you can't get to heaven without being baptised. (In itself an evil idea of course.) So I guess I got lucky.

This is another example of people putting church before God, not all that different than selling indulgences.
Tangle writes:

You say that neither of us are an authority on what a Christian is, then tell me that there are basic tenets. And, of course they will be your tenets not, say, Faith's or mine.

Firstly I'd suggest that one would have to believe in theism, and secondly, one would have to believe something about the Christian faith that separates it from basic humanism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 3:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 1:48 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 369 of 418 (853981)
06-03-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by GDR
06-03-2019 1:26 PM


GDR writes:

and you know that how?

1. Omnipotence
2. Heaven

If good is the only choice then it isn't a choice.

It's not just good, it's also no evil, ie the concept of both doesn't exist. There's no logical difficulty with that state, nor does it contradict free will. (Which, in any case, only deals with good and evil and has nothing to say about suffering - famine, disaster, disease etc. Why does god need pancreatic cancer?)

In order to wind up with a world who freely choose the good or loving option, this world with it's freedom to choose is necessary.

That's just plain daft. Your god knows the outcome of any world he sets up, so he knows the winners and losers - why run the hunger games? He's evil isn't he?

I don't pretend to have any knowledge about heaven, which again I don't view as the final destination. The Biblical theme is the re-creation of all things.

Oh come on, that's just ducking the issue. If heaven isn't a place of perfection wtf is it?

This is another example of people putting church before God, not all that different than selling indulgences.

Actually it's just another case of people making shit up to justify their beliefs. Normal.

Firstly I'd suggest that one would have to believe in theism, and secondly, one would have to believe something about the Christian faith that separates it from basic humanism.

Sure, you can make up anything you like and it'll be true for you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 1:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 5:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 370 of 418 (853984)
06-03-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Stile
06-03-2019 10:25 AM


Stile writes:

Fair enough... and what is the benefit from all this?
I would assume the benefit is that you feel you are "doing what you're supposed to be doing" or that you feel "like you fit into this strange world as you find your place."

Such benefits do not require God.
I obtain such benefits by creating my own purpose - without involving God at all.

I find the initial question ambiguous. I think if it had been "What benefits are only available through belief in God", then it would be clearer.

In the past I spent a lot of time volunteering in the political field with the hope that the party I was supporting would make the country a better place for it's citizens. On a personal level I wasn't doing it for a particular benefit to myself. I was already living a very comfortable life just as things were and didn't really see any particular benefit for me.

I think I hold a similar POV about my Christian faith. I worked for a political party and my local candidate because I believed in them I believed in what they stood for. I want to work for Jesus because I believe in Him and what He stands for. Yes, I go beyond that in that I am a theist who believes that God is good and that He resurrected Jesus.

I frankly am not looking for any particular benefit. I accept the biblical view of that there is an afterlife but I figure that God will take care of that and my role is simply to fulfill what I believe is my Christian vocation in this life, which is to image and reflect God's love for His creation. I also accept that there are a massive numbers of non-Christians who do this far better than I do, but that isn't the point.

So, I can't be specific about anything available through God for Christians that isn't available to everyone. I contend that for some, such as Tangle's relative, that Christian belief gives them a particular peace that they might not have otherwise, and presumably it would be for me as well when I get to that point in life.

Stile writes:

Therefore... obtaining a "point to my existence" because "there is a loving God as personified in Jesus" lowers the point of Stile's existence.
Therefore... even if this was true - I would have to reject this purpose and obtain my own.

Perhaps the one I develop will be similar - perhaps not.
The point is that it comes from me... it benefits Stile greatly. But if it comes from someone else (God, Jesus... anyone...) it lowers the point of Stile's existence.
(According to Stile.)
And... since Stile is me... I am the only one that matters concerning my own subjective issues like "purpose" and "feeling positive benefits from things."

I get that, and it is where I was in my agnostic period. I wouold point out though, that if I am correct in my beliefs then the peace that you get is actually from God whether you, or anyone for that matter, recognizes it or not.

For example, when we hold our new-born child in our arms we feel this incredible sense of love, purpose and joy. I know that the majority of people on this forum will disagree strongly, but I do not have the faith to believe that those feelings emanate from a chance collection of mindless particles. Those feelings are there for everyone regardless of religious faith, but I believe that we have those feelings because we have a God who shares them. I would say that those feelings are "Only Available Through God' but that they aren't only available to Christians, but are available to all regardless of any religious belief, or of no religious belief.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Stile, posted 06-03-2019 10:25 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Stile, posted 06-04-2019 3:05 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 371 of 418 (853988)
06-03-2019 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by ringo
06-03-2019 11:41 AM


ringo writes:

You can if there's an "or else" attached. And that's exactly what Jesus said: Love your neighbour and you inherit the kingdom. Don't love your neighbour and you go to everlasting torment.

First off I don't understand Jesus as having said that. I'd suggest that the one who phrases it best is CS Lewis who said this from his book "The Great Divorce".
quote:
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

If someone chooses to base their life on self love and self promotion are not going to choose a life where that isn't part of the landscape. They would choose a world, (called hell if you like), that is a world where people have their own agendas and look out for themselves, even sometimes at the expense of others.

Your point doesn't really make sense anyway. It is all about the heart, and people can't be commanded to have love, even under threat, for someone or some group when they hate them. They might fake loving someone for that reason but they can't actual hold it in their heart.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 06-03-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 06-04-2019 11:58 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 372 of 418 (853991)
06-03-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Tangle
06-03-2019 1:48 PM


GDR writes:

and you know that how?

Tangle writes:

1. Omnipotence
2. Heaven

The trouble is that you attack your understanding of Christianity. I don't believe that version, at least as I understand it, either. Christianity is a religion, like most others. to explain our lives and then how we should respond. Read Paul. He is presumably the first theologian who puts his interpretation of the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus on to paper. Christians disagree on all sorts of stuff. Look at the difference of what I believe as compared to Faith.

In this case, my Christian belief is that a world of 'human caused' suffering and suffering that is the result of entropy were necessary to ultimately bring about a world with creatures who have chosen a world based on sacrificial love.

Tangle writes:

It's not just good, it's also no evil, ie the concept of both doesn't exist. There's no logical difficulty with that state, nor does it contradict free will. (Which, in any case, only deals with good and evil and has nothing to say about suffering - famine, disaster, disease etc. Why does god need pancreatic cancer?)

I don't deny that thgis is the most difficult question for a Christian to deal with. I simply accept that it was necessary but I also see that God has given us intelligence and the will so that we can minimize the effect of suffering whether it be human caused or naturally caused.

Tangle writes:

That's just plain daft. Your god knows the outcome of any world he sets up, so he knows the winners and losers - why run the hunger games?

I don't see that. Here is a 3 min video with John Polkinghorne who talks about his view that the future is not known by God as the future is not there to be known.
God and time

Tangle writes:

Oh come on, that's just ducking the issue. If heaven isn't a place of perfection wtf is it?

I simply see heaven as God's universe or dimension. Beyond that, I don't have real answers for you.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 1:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 6:08 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 373 of 418 (853995)
06-03-2019 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by GDR
06-03-2019 5:33 PM


GDR writes:

The trouble is that you attack your understanding of Christianity.

I admit it's tricky remembering every believer's individual versions of what they call Christianity, but you know, heaven and omnipotence are generally safe territory.

In this case, my Christian belief is that a world of 'human caused' suffering and suffering that is the result of entropy were necessary to ultimately bring about a world with creatures who have chosen a world based on sacrificial love.

I'm forced to accept that you believe that gobbledegook, but it makes no rational sense at all.

I don't deny that thgis is the most difficult question for a Christian to deal with. I simply accept that it was necessary but I also see that God has given us intelligence and the will so that we can minimize the effect of suffering whether it be human caused or naturally caused.

Some consolation, we're in charge of fixing god's design bug?

his view that the future is not known by God

Polkinghome knows no more about this than your or I. But now your god is neither omnipotent nor all knowing. You seem to be praying to a lessor god and certainly not one that most Christians recognise.

I simply see heaven as God's universe or dimension. Beyond that, I don't have real answers for you.

So no paradise, no pearly gates etc. You just believe in people being nice. Welcome to humanism. If you cut out the unnecessary idolatry you'd save a lot of time.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 5:33 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 8:28 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 379 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 3:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 374 of 418 (854017)
06-04-2019 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Tangle
06-03-2019 6:08 PM


This banter back and forth with GDR has exposed one of the biggest issues with religion in general and Christianity in particular. Anyone can come up with any interpretation of a god that fits with their particular needs and desires. Internally inconsistent and cognitively dissonant ideas and arguments, full of gobbledygook, are used in place of reasoned rational discourse to support their beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2019 6:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 375 of 418 (854042)
06-04-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by GDR
06-03-2019 4:48 PM


GDR writes:

First off I don't understand Jesus as having said that.


Then you don't understand it. It's exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

CSLewis writes:

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.


That's just egregiously stupid.

GDR writes:

If someone chooses to base their life on self love and self promotion...


That is not what Jesus said. He said that those who help others will inherit eternal life.

GDR writes:

It is all about the heart...


No it isn't. It's about the hands.

GDR writes:

...people can't be commanded to have love, even under threat, for someone or some group when they hate them.


Have you even heard of the Bible? Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor. And He used the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain that even your worst enemy counts as your neighbor.

GDR writes:

They might fake loving someone for that reason but they can't actual hold it in their heart.


That's exactly it. You can fake loving somebody "in your heart". You can say, "Lord! Lord!" till the cows come home. But it's what you do with your hands that shows real love.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 06-03-2019 4:48 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-04-2019 2:40 PM ringo has responded
 Message 380 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 4:17 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
2324
25
262728Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019