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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 392 of 418 (854211)
06-05-2019 4:49 PM


Re: Taking The Gloves Off
Phat writes:

Isaiah 5:8-21 warns us of excesses. It speaks of the sin that you naive secular humanist liberals make against Christianity and the God whom you deny exists.


Isaiah was written to the Jews , and by extension, if you like, to Christians. It is not about secular humanists calling evil good; it's about Jews/Christians calling evil good.

Izquierdo.

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 394 of 418 (854214)
06-05-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by GDR
06-05-2019 3:46 PM


Tangle writes:

Middle of the road Anglicanism is exactly what I mean by playing the game to your own rules. Anglicanism is as near to agnosticism as makes no difference. It's the ultimate pick and mix belief system loosely based around a Christian myth. You are able to fluff every traditional Christian position, from heaven to hell, from omnipotence to original sin. (...)I see Anglicanism as the pathway the sane Christians are taking towards secularism and humanism so I'm all for it. But it's still total bollox and a distraction from doing more useful stuff with your time.

The question then becomes what is the most efficient use of our time while here on earth. Ringo seems to think we all should focus on doing...and that belief is irrelevant and, in fact, harmful. Tangle and Theodoric agree to some extent. Tangle, however, raises the stakes when he states to GDR:

You're interfering with another culture's belief system. Stop it, it's patronizing, evil and wrong - even if it's well meant.
Thus he is calling good evil and evil good, as scripture warns us about. Isaiah 5:8-21 warns us of excesses. It speaks of the sin that you naive humanists make against Christianity and the God whom you deny exists.
Isa 5:18-21 writes:

18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity,
And sin as if with a cart rope;
19 That say, "Let Him make speed and hasten His work,
That we may see it;
And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come,
That we may know it."

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!
NKJV

The haughty arrogance of the humanist/atheists is explained here:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnes's Isaiah 5:19 Bible Commentary
That says... - They add one sin to another for "the purpose of defying" God and provoking him to anger. They pretend that he will not punish sin; and hence, they plunge deeper into it, and defy him to punish them.
Let him make speed - Let him come quickly to punish.
And hasten his work - His punishment.
That we may see it - An expression of defiance. We would like to see him undertake it.

The counsel of the Holy One ... - His threatened purpose to punish. This is the language of all sinners. They plunge deep into sin; they mock at the threatenings of God; they defy him to do his utmost; they do not believe his declarations. It is difficult to conceive more dreadful and high-handed iniquity than this.
---------------------------

Which brings up several questions. You claim that "sane Christians" are heading towards secularism and humanism, correct? The implication is, of course, that the insane Christians such as myself teach that the world will never improve without accepting the Holy Spirit--through Jesus Christ, and surrendering to this necessary flow.

And if so, you are quite correct.

Secularism: the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.-- Make no mistake, I believe in the separation of church and state. What bothers me is when the state attempts to impose its own "religion" and code of ethics as a default for everyone. I will fight that one with my last dying breath.
Hopefully, the Democratic majority will never become an atheist majority. They can create their own rules in their own homes but not in mine.

Humanism:an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. It all sounds good and well if we were in fact not in a spiritual war and if God was but a myth. He isn't. You will never convince us of this. Even if you silence me, God Himself will put you deceived and deluded (though well-meaning people) in check for all eternity.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixed spelling and punctuation errors


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 3:46 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:28 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 395 of 418 (854215)
06-05-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by GDR
06-05-2019 3:46 PM


GDR writes:

My point was that my beliefs are hardly unique.

I suspect that your belief is entirely unique. Actually I suspect all are. They're all personal variants within the 30,000 or so Christian mythologies. Your variant of a modernised liberal Christian belief system involves distorted science that you don't understand but jemmie into your model and compromising all the basic founding features of the belief itself. It's great, there's virtually nothing left of it but gentle Jesus meek and mild.

I listened to your ex-boss, Archbishop Rowan Williams a couple of years ago, I liked him a lot, he's an intelligent and thoughtful guy. Intelligent enough to give up the job too. I watched him struggle to answer a simple question about the existence of god and I could see that he was really struggling with it. Like I say, it's agnosticism bar the name.

Having lost that point you then move on to being critical of the Anglican church in general.

You haven't yet understood my point. And I'm not criticising the Anglican church. As religions go, it's one of the best. My actual preference is for the Quakers if I had to choose.

If you actually read through the articles of faith of the Anglican church you can see that Anglicans do actually have a relatively cohesive theology. In every service either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles creed is read out loud by the congregation.

Yeh I know all that. That's the official version but I know an awful lot of Anglicans and their actual beliefs are wide and mostly wishy-washy nice.

I am not concerned about their belief system.

Liar, liar pants on fire!

Of course you're doing wonderful things and trying to help people but the underlying agenda is conversion. Bringing the good news etc. My wife has a good friend who was an Anglican missionary in Africa, her and her husband now look back on their days there in horror of what they did. Maybe things have changed or your lot is very special - perhaps, but that's not the norm.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 3:46 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 7:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6880
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 396 of 418 (854217)
06-05-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Thugpreacha
06-05-2019 5:03 PM


Phat writes:

It all sounds good and well if we were in fact not in a spiritual war

There's no spiritual war Phat. Atheist don't give a hoot what you nutters believe so long as you don't interfere with what others believe or don't believe.

and if God was but a myth. He isn't.

Says you.

You will never win this one.
It's only you fundies that thinks you're in a fight. I suppose it helps you to imagine an enemy. My side couldn't care less, belief is evaporating naturally, we're just getting on with life.

Even if you silence me,

Look, feel free to rant and rave away to your heart's content. No one cares. No one's trying to silence you are they?

I have to say, it sounds like you're trying to be a martyr.

God Himself will put you arrogant deceived and deluded (though well-meaning people in check for all eternity.

I'm sure you'll recover your mental balance soon - at least I hope so.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-05-2019 5:03 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Theodoric, posted 06-05-2019 6:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 397 of 418 (854219)
06-05-2019 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Tangle
06-05-2019 5:28 PM


I'm sure you'll recover your mental balance soon

Doubt it. Phat has had is moments of fervor in the past. This is different. He drank the kool aid. I think you hit the nail on the head. He wants to be a martyr.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:28 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 398 of 418 (854223)
06-05-2019 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by ringo
06-05-2019 11:41 AM


ringo writes:

But it isn't. If you obey the command to love, you don't have to be commanded not to kill.

No argument there.
ringo writes:

o. The command to love is a command to do loving actions.

Not really. The loving actions are symptoms of a loving heart.
ringo writes:

It isn't about rewards. The point of Matthew 25 is that God's will is about what you do, not about what you profess. It doesn't matter what your motivation or your attitude is; what matters is your physical actions.

Sure it doesn't matter to the person that is the beneficiary of the action. However, if the the individual in question is expecting something back in return for the loving action then it isn't really loving.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by ringo, posted 06-05-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 399 of 418 (854227)
06-05-2019 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Tangle
06-05-2019 5:07 PM


Tangle writes:

Of course you're doing wonderful things and trying to help people but the underlying agenda is conversion. Bringing the good news etc. My wife has a good friend who was an Anglican missionary in Africa, her and her husband now look back on their days there in horror of what they did. Maybe things have changed or your lot is very special - perhaps, but that's not the norm.

The aim is not to convert but to serve. I just read a book called the Patient Fermant of the Early Church.

It was an interesting read. I think that the church in general is going largely back to that model. Instead of evangelizing the church's vocation is all about loving service. If because of seeing this loving service in action it causes people to inquire about Christian beliefs then sure you talk about it, but that isn't the point. The point is simply to model the Bible verse I use in my quote.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-06-2019 2:33 PM GDR has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 400 of 418 (854259)
06-06-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by GDR
06-05-2019 6:55 PM


GDR writes:

The loving actions are symptoms of a loving heart.


That's an empty claim - and a self-serving one. You can always claim that you really, really, really do love but without the actions, there's no reason to think that you do. By their fruits ye shall know them.

GDR writes:

Sure it doesn't matter to the person that is the beneficiary of the action.


It doesn't matter to anybody, except maybe a badly warped god. The only thing that matters is the action.

GDR writes:

However, if the the individual in question is expecting something back in return for the loving action then it isn't really loving.


That isn't what Jesus said. He didn't mention anything but the actual action. If you're motivated by wanting to "serve Jesus", that is not love.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 6:55 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-06-2019 2:41 PM ringo has responded
 Message 403 by GDR, posted 06-06-2019 6:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 401 of 418 (854285)
06-06-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by GDR
06-05-2019 7:50 PM


Patience Is A Virtue
I checked out the Kindle sample of that book. It is a good one! Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and the early church was in no hurry to rush things. We all could learn from that today.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by GDR, posted 06-05-2019 7:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 06-06-2019 6:11 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 402 of 418 (854286)
06-06-2019 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
06-06-2019 11:39 AM


Whom We Represent
Though actions are themselves where the rubber meets the road, some actions can have an effect the opposite of what was intended. If you buy a homeless guy a beer and he happens to be an alcoholic, for example...you have done little to help him.

As I reflect on my own aggressive behavior, I am reminded of the catchphrase of What Would Jesus Do?

Would Jesus simply buy the homeless guy a beer or would Jesus buy him a meal? Would Jesus charge him with shoplifting or would Jesus pray for him while overlooking the obvious sin of "Thou Shalt Not Steal"? Would Jesus annoy everyone at EvC Forum with a self-righteous attitude or would Jesus strive for humility and understanding? These sorts of inner dialogues are necessary on a daily basis.

Some would argue that we are responsible for our own behavior, and I won't disagree. What I will do, however, is to always ask myself what Jesus would likely do in any given situation.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:38 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 403 of 418 (854295)
06-06-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
06-06-2019 11:39 AM


ringo writes:

That's an empty claim - and a self-serving one. You can always claim that you really, really, really do love but without the actions, there's no reason to think that you do. By their fruits ye shall know them.

I agree with that completely. None of us know what is in a person's heart, maybe not even our own

ringo writes:

That isn't what Jesus said. He didn't mention anything but the actual action. If you're motivated by wanting to "serve Jesus", that is not love.

..but He did make it clear that the actions were done simply out of care for others. Another good exapmle is the "Good Samaritan".

The one who loved his neighbour was the one of the "hated Samaritans" who took care of the individual and even paid for his accommodation. I suggest that from a Christian perspective if Jesus was telling that parable today, it would be the story of the "Good Muslim", as it is clear that this is a call on the hearts of all mankind and has nothing to do with our various doctrines.

In this example it is even more clear that the command to love is more than just action, it also includes being prepared to love at our own expense.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 06-06-2019 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:46 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4814
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 404 of 418 (854297)
06-06-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Thugpreacha
06-06-2019 2:33 PM


Re: Patience Is A Virtue
Thugpreacha writes:

I checked out the Kindle sample of that book. It is a good one! Patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and the early church was in no hurry to rush things. We all could learn from that today.


It was a good read. You are right about the patience thing, but part of that was that the idea of growing the church was secondary to the foolowing out of Jesus' command to love neighbour and enemy, even in the face of estrangement and sometimes death.

In so many cases today Christians have gotten so focused on personal salvation, to the point that what we are called to has been often made secondary. You are right. We should get back to the vocation that God calls His church to.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-06-2019 2:33 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 405 of 418 (854341)
06-07-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Thugpreacha
06-06-2019 2:41 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

Would Jesus simply buy the homeless guy a beer or would Jesus buy him a meal?


We already know the answer to that. Jesus would turn water into beer. Really, there's a whole book about this stuff. You should read it sometime.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-06-2019 2:41 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 406 of 418 (854343)
06-07-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by GDR
06-06-2019 6:00 PM


GDR writes:

..but He did make it clear that the actions were done simply out of care for others.


Where did He say that? Not in Matthew 25.

GDR writes:

Another good exapmle is the "Good Samaritan".


Same thing there. All I see is the action itself, nothing about the motivation.

GDR writes:

In this example it is even more clear that the command to love is more than just action, it also includes being prepared to love at our own expense.


Of course, loving your neighbour usually involves some expense to ourselves. That has nothing to do with love being in the heart. It's all about the hands.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by GDR, posted 06-06-2019 6:00 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 407 of 418 (854364)
06-07-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by ringo
06-07-2019 11:38 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Jesus would turn water into beer.
Not for an alcoholic he wouldn't. Context is everything. At the wedding, the alcohol(wine) was symbolic. The guests were not a bunch of homeless drunks. Jesus the character has more wisdom than ringo, apparently.

I need to pray for humility, though. I tend to get arrogant when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park. But then again, you guys see no Umpire. He is but a myth.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 11:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2019 5:50 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 409 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2019 6:50 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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