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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 408 of 430 (854373)
06-07-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Thugpreacha
06-07-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
At the wedding, the alcohol(wine) was symbolic.

Where does it say that in the bible?

when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park

Humble aren't you. Hubris does not fit you well. As I see it you aren't even close to the Mendoza line.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 409 of 430 (854376)
06-07-2019 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Thugpreacha
06-07-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

I need to pray for humility, though. I tend to get arrogant when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park.

Have you learned nothing from watching Mike the Wiz at work? Bragging about making what you think is a winning point is bad form, but when it's just plain wrong, you make yourself look a complete dick - and you're doing a lot of it lately.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17394
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 410 of 430 (854377)
06-07-2019 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Thugpreacha
06-07-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

Not for an alcoholic he wouldn't.


Why can't you just take the Bible for what it says? Why do you have to twist everything to fit your pre-conceived apologetic agenda? How can you expect anybody to believe that Jesus isn't made up when YOU make up most of what you say about Him?

It says that Jesus made wine. Period.

Phat writes:

I tend to get arrogant when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park.


You don't even know which end of the bat to hold.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:24 AM ringo has responded
 Message 412 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:27 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 411 of 430 (854393)
06-08-2019 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
06-07-2019 8:26 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
ringo writes:

Why can't you just take the Bible for what it says? Why do you have to twist everything to fit your pre-conceived apologetic agenda? How can you expect anybody to believe that Jesus isn't made up when YOU make up most of what you say about Him?
It says that Jesus made wine. Period.

The problem here is that you don't believe that the many humans who wrote the Bible were inspired to record what they wrote. They quite obviously didn't have ulterior motives or preplanned agendas. And why is their writing cohesive amongst them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2019 9:24 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 06-08-2019 11:53 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 412 of 430 (854394)
06-08-2019 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
06-07-2019 8:26 PM


Re: Whom We Represent
You get mad at me for being arrogant yet you attempt to insult me. I'll go heads up with any of you on an IQ test and likely beat you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 8:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2019 7:33 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 415 by Theodoric, posted 06-08-2019 9:25 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 417 by ringo, posted 06-08-2019 11:57 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7085
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 413 of 430 (854395)
06-08-2019 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Thugpreacha
06-08-2019 6:27 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

I'll go heads up with any of you on an IQ test and likely beat you.

Yeh, but anyway, my dad is bigger than your dad. Nah nah ne nah nah.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:27 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 414 of 430 (854397)
06-08-2019 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Thugpreacha
06-08-2019 6:24 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
And why is their writing cohesive amongst them?

It isn't. Why do you think it is? Still waiting for the part of the bible that says the wine was symbolic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:24 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 415 of 430 (854398)
06-08-2019 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Thugpreacha
06-08-2019 6:27 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Mines bigger. No mines bigger.
Get a coherent argument and quit acting like a 12 year old.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:27 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17394
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 416 of 430 (854406)
06-08-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Thugpreacha
06-08-2019 6:24 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

The problem here is that you don't believe that the many humans who wrote the Bible were inspired to record what they wrote.


That's not a problem. It's reality.

Phat writes:

They quite obviously didn't have ulterior motives or preplanned agendas.


What's obvious about it? I bet you won't answer that.

Phat writes:

And why is their writing cohesive amongst them?


It isn't. I bet you won't answer that either.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:24 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17394
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 417 of 430 (854408)
06-08-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Thugpreacha
06-08-2019 6:27 AM


Re: Whom We Represent
Phat writes:

You get mad at me for being arrogant yet you attempt to insult me.


What did I say to insult you?

(Note to Faith: That's how to respond to an accusation, not with flat denial.)

Phat writes:

I'll go heads up with any of you on an IQ test and likely beat you.


I don't believe IQ tests have any validity but sure, fire your guns. If you beat me, what does that prove? That God is real?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-08-2019 6:27 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3847
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 418 of 430 (854542)
06-10-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by GDR
06-04-2019 5:08 PM


GDR writes:

I would agree that a non-Christian could find that same sense of love and peace and feel the same emotions, but what they would miss out on would be the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and its creatures.

"...they would miss out on the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures."

I don't see that to me missing out on anything at all.

Why would I need God to be in this world?
-I'm perfectly happy within this world without Him.

Why would I need God to care about this world and it's creatures?
-I'm perfectly able to care about this world and it's creatures without Him.

I understand how some people may get benefits like sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' because of this.
-But I'm perfectly able to have a sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' without God involved.

So what part about 'having a sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures' offers a benefit that cannot be obtained without God?

Not "cannot be obtained without God for all people..." I admit that such a things doesn't exist. Just as I'm claiming that "benefits from God" do not exist for all people.
Just a benefit that exists that some receive from (or through) God... that cannot be obtained without God.

Also, one other benefit to me specifically, was that I found life went a lot more smoothly for me when I became a Christian. I found that working at following God in my life was much easier than try to be the person that would be approved of by others in my life. God seemed a lot easier to please. I found that by living that way, my relationships with others went more smoothly and in general life just became more pleasant.

A fantastic example of how God is very helpful to some people.

That is just my experience and wouldn't necessarily hold true for others, and in fact could be very much the opposite for them.

Exactly. People like me, for instance.
In fact, my life started going a lot more smoothly when I understood atheism. I began acknowledging people and situations for what they were... not as if some "external force" was acting upon them. It simplified things to a point where I felt comfortable in any situation. Everything simply became more pleasant.

It seems like this is another benefit that can be obtained without God.

GDR writes:

Stile writes:

Just as there are some (like me) who get a particular peace specifically away from the Christian belief, one that cannot be obtained (for me) within a Christian framework.


I accept that, but can you be more specific or give an example?

As I said:

The idea that Jesus or God exists and is providing purpose for us is a negative for me. It brings me worry and fear. I do not like the idea of being created for a purpose by a supreme being. I find the idea controlling and it gives me a sense of claustrophobia. It makes me feel like our lives are set up as a mouse-and-cheese maze. The cheese being the purpose God or Jesus provides for us, and us being the mouse.

I feel much more relaxed and comfortable with the idea of imagining my own cheese, my own maze, and my own 'mouse' (me) even.

Look at the universe within the first seconds after the BB and think about the likelihood of conscience life as we know it forming from what existed then, without any intelligent input. I don't require an answer.

I would say the likelihood, to me, seems incredibly dim and practically non-existent.

But I would also say that this question, and my judgement, are inconsequential to me.

1. I don't know much about Big Bangs and what they should (or should not) look like in having "a likelihood of future conscience life."
-I've been in many, many situations where I think something is incredibly unlikely... then it happens... and then I educated myself of the situation... and then I realize that the thing was actually very likely to happen - I just didn't understand it originally.

-Like my experience in learning to drive a car. My parents were very conservative with such things - I never got to 'drive in a parking lot' or 'up and down the driveway' or have any other steering-wheel-to-wheels experience before turning 16. I was terrified of attempting to drive. To me, it was "incredibly unlikely" that I was going to be able to control the wheels of the car by the steering wheel. Riding my bike was fine, I was adept at that. But I could see the tire of my bike... I couldn't see the tires of the car. Then I tried it, and it was easy. Then I did some more thinking and realized that almost everyone drives - therefore it can't really be all that hard. I should have known better. But I didn't.

-My current understanding of things (especially those which I know I don't understand very well) does not affect the reality of things.

2. We are here.
-Therefore, regardless of what "the likelihood" of us eventually evolving while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-Also, regardless of what I think "the likelihood" of us evolving from while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-It happened. And that is all I need in order to be here, and think, and love, and live. All without God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 5:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
a servant of Christ
Inactive Member


Message 419 of 430 (858798)
07-23-2019 8:26 PM


to be completely resigned to a cross you didn't choose but have to accept to serve the Creator

i'm not entirely sure that this is a benefit, but it's the only thing he promises in this life at least.

the benefit it creates is to be a human being of extreme humility ready to be at the service of others


Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2019 2:50 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 420 of 430 (858855)
07-24-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by a servant of Christ
07-23-2019 8:26 PM


Phat writes:

You mention God, but never seem to have even pretended to have a relationship with Him. Or am I premature...


Stile writes:

I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about.(...)
I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me.
I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.
Or, maybe I only thought I had a relationship with God, and I just didn't know I was mistaken.

When I became born again in 1993, there was most definitely a dramatic change. Critics could say I was brainwashed or emotionally predisposed to fitting in to the charismatic culture but everything I remember about the experience (which is ongoing, by the way) showed me that this path was something new...something I had never experienced before.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by a servant of Christ, posted 07-23-2019 8:26 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Stile, posted 07-26-2019 10:06 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3847
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 421 of 430 (858960)
07-26-2019 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Thugpreacha
07-24-2019 2:50 PM


Thugpreacha writes:

...everything I remember about the experience (which is ongoing, by the way) showed me that this path was something new...something I had never experienced before.

So what about this do you think is only available through God?

Do you think that no other person has every had any experience that showed them something new... something they never experienced before?
I assure you, it happens to almost everyone at least a few times in their life.
Some more often than others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2019 2:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 422 of 430 (859788)
08-03-2019 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
10-20-2009 3:08 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.


Define better.

Stile writes:

Better Sources for Spiritual Requirements:
-those sources that grant me a more powerful sense of spiritual ideas (happiness, comfort, peace, solace...)

To me that's an error in thinking. We are not our own spirituality. (Unless you agree with the idea that ye shall be as gods.) One simply does not use spirituality to grant themselves anything. One common reason why people reject the concept of god is because they abhor anything or anyone overriding their own power and free will. Which is a valid complaint unless the larger context of spiritual war is involved, in which case we all arguably submit to something anyway.

I know you don't believe in spiritual warfare, and when I quote what Greg Boyd said about the subject you guys will claim that he made up the story(lied) simply to promote his book. But I'll post it anyway:

Dr.Gregory Boyd writes:

Greg’s story behind the writing of God at War: I encountered my first demonized person in 1988. As a pastor I was called to a home where a teenage girl had been acting like “the Tasmanian Devil” (as her mother put it). The moment I entered the home I knew what she meant. The house had been decimated by this woman’s 15 year old daughter. “Please do something,” the mother pleaded.

The young lady was in the backyard of this farmhouse inside an area fenced by barbed wire. Her arms were badly scraped up because she’d been pushing them against the barbed wire fence. The first thing she said to me was that if I tried to cross the fence she’d kill herself. I complied.

For the next twenty minutes or so this young lady seemed to go in and out of “normal” consciousness, talking with me for brief periods in a semi-coherent fashion, then suddenly going into fits during which she’d growl and shake her head back and forth. During several of these fits this girl would throw herself against the barbed fence, causing more scraping to her arms.

Suddenly, in the middle of one of these fits, the girl reached down and grabbed a scrap piece of barbed wire that was laying on the ground. With lightening speed she wrapped the wire around her neck and, looking up into the sky and howling, began pulling it back and forth – as if she was trying to saw off her head! The surrealistic image is forever seared into my memory.

I jumped the fence and pinned the girl to the ground, preventing her from further harming herself. I screamed for her mother to call for help.

As I struggled to keep the young lady from sawing her head off, I was amazed at how strong she was. I could bench press close to 300 pounds at this stage of my life, yet it took every ounce of strength I had to constrain this rather small teenage girl.

What I noticed next was even more disturbing, however. Holding this girl to the ground for what seemed like an eternity, I noticed that her eyes didn’t seem normal. It’s hard to describe, but they looked cold and hazy – almost lifeless. My body suddenly shuddered, as if I’d been shocked with electricity, when I suddenly got the eerie sense the girl was no longer looking at me through those eyes.

I screamed for the mother to tell the help to hurry up.

As I waited, I recalled a Gospel story about a demonized boy who shrieked when he was brought to Jesus and who would occasionally try to drown himself or throw himself into fire (Mk 9:17-29). I also recalled episodes in the New Testament where demonized people exhibited supernatural strength (Mk 5:3-4; Ac. 19:14-16). It suddenly occurred to me that this is what I was dealing with.

I began to pray and rebuke the demon, but within a couple minutes three people with a straight jacket and stretcher showed up and took the young girl away.

This event forever changed the way I look at the world. I had believed in Satan and demons since my conversion fourteen years earlier, but only now did they seem real to me. I became aware that we humans like in a spiritual war zone. I moved into what I’ve come to call a “warfare worldview.”

For the next seven years I studied the Bible thoroughly and read many books on the topic of spiritual warfare. Then, in 1995 I presented a paper at an academic conference on Satan and the problem of evil — arguing that the problem of explaining the evil in the world can never be adequately resolved unless we take seriously the activity of Satan and other fallen spirits.

At the end of the conference an editor for InterVarsity Press (Rodney Clapp) approached me and asked me if I’d consider fleshing out my thesis in a book. I jumped at the opportunity.

Initially I planned on writing a book that would 1) lay out the biblical view of spiritual warfare; 2) provide a philosophical defense of the warfare worldview, and; 3) trace how this worldview was developed in the early church and how it was eventually lost when the Augustinian “blueprint worldview” became dominant. I thought the book would run two to three hundred pages. As it turned out, the three objectives became three separate books, forming a “Satan and Evil” trilogy.

God at War is the first book in this series. It lays out the biblical foundation for a warfare worldview.

Satan and the Problem of Evil was the second in the series, while the third, The Myth of the Blueprint, is in the process of being written.

I’ve been extremely pleased with the reception God at War has received. As of January, 2008, it’s gone through 15 printings. And I’ve been blessed to see how it’s impacted many peoples’ theology. Numerous people — scholars and laypeople alike — have told me the book revolutionized the way they look at God and the world. Rather than viewing all events as unfolding according to the will of God (what I call the “blueprint worldview”), they now understand that the world is a war zone and that it is up to God’s people to align their will with God’s will for God’s will to be done “on earth as it is in heaven” (Mt 6:10).

So is Boyd lying? I realize that anecdotal stories and testimonies do not truth make, but I have heard enough of these anecdotes to consider them.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 10-20-2009 3:08 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 5:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 424 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2019 10:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 430 by Stile, posted 08-06-2019 1:34 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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