Message 418 of 418 (854542)
06-10-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by GDR
06-04-2019 5:08 PM
I would agree that a non-Christian could find that same sense of love and peace and feel the same emotions, but what they would miss out on would be the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and its creatures.
"...they would miss out on the sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures."
I don't see that to me missing out on anything at all.
Why would I need God to be in this world?
-I'm perfectly happy within this world without Him.
Why would I need God to care about this world and it's creatures?
-I'm perfectly able to care about this world and it's creatures without Him.
I understand how some people may get benefits like sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' because of this.
-But I'm perfectly able to have a sense of fitting in, of belonging, or of 'being cared for or loved' without God involved.
So what part about 'having a sense that God is in this world, and cares about this world and it's creatures' offers a benefit that cannot be obtained without God?
Not "cannot be obtained without God for all people..." I admit that such a things doesn't exist. Just as I'm claiming that "benefits from God" do not exist for all people.
Just a benefit that exists that some receive from (or through) God... that cannot be obtained without God.
|Also, one other benefit to me specifically, was that I found life went a lot more smoothly for me when I became a Christian. I found that working at following God in my life was much easier than try to be the person that would be approved of by others in my life. God seemed a lot easier to please. I found that by living that way, my relationships with others went more smoothly and in general life just became more pleasant.|
A fantastic example of how God is very helpful to some people.
|That is just my experience and wouldn't necessarily hold true for others, and in fact could be very much the opposite for them.|
Exactly. People like me, for instance.
In fact, my life started going a lot more smoothly when I understood atheism. I began acknowledging people and situations for what they were... not as if some "external force" was acting upon them. It simplified things to a point where I felt comfortable in any situation. Everything simply became more pleasant.
It seems like this is another benefit that can be obtained without God.
Just as there are some (like me) who get a particular peace specifically away from the Christian belief, one that cannot be obtained (for me) within a Christian framework.
I accept that, but can you be more specific or give an example?
As I said:
The idea that Jesus or God exists and is providing purpose for us is a negative for me. It brings me worry and fear. I do not like the idea of being created for a purpose by a supreme being. I find the idea controlling and it gives me a sense of claustrophobia. It makes me feel like our lives are set up as a mouse-and-cheese maze. The cheese being the purpose God or Jesus provides for us, and us being the mouse.
I feel much more relaxed and comfortable with the idea of imagining my own cheese, my own maze, and my own 'mouse' (me) even.
|Look at the universe within the first seconds after the BB and think about the likelihood of conscience life as we know it forming from what existed then, without any intelligent input. I don't require an answer.|
I would say the likelihood, to me, seems incredibly dim and practically non-existent.
But I would also say that this question, and my judgement, are inconsequential to me.
1. I don't know much about Big Bangs and what they should (or should not) look like in having "a likelihood of future conscience life."
-I've been in many, many situations where I think something is incredibly unlikely... then it happens... and then I educated myself of the situation... and then I realize that the thing was actually very likely to happen - I just didn't understand it originally.
-Like my experience in learning to drive a car. My parents were very conservative with such things - I never got to 'drive in a parking lot' or 'up and down the driveway' or have any other steering-wheel-to-wheels experience before turning 16. I was terrified of attempting to drive. To me, it was "incredibly unlikely" that I was going to be able to control the wheels of the car by the steering wheel. Riding my bike was fine, I was adept at that. But I could see the tire of my bike... I couldn't see the tires of the car. Then I tried it, and it was easy. Then I did some more thinking and realized that almost everyone drives - therefore it can't really be all that hard. I should have known better. But I didn't.
-My current understanding of things (especially those which I know I don't understand very well) does not affect the reality of things.
2. We are here.
-Therefore, regardless of what "the likelihood" of us eventually evolving while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-Also, regardless of what I think "the likelihood" of us evolving from while looking at 'seconds after the BB' actually is...
-It happened. And that is all I need in order to be here, and think, and love, and live. All without God.
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| ||Message 382 by GDR, posted 06-04-2019 5:08 PM|| ||GDR has not yet responded|