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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5148
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 423 of 438 (859796)
08-03-2019 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
So is Boyd lying?

A self-serving anecdote? I wouldn't put it past him.

But he is a religionist and will see what he wants to see regardless of the reality.

quote:
I had believed in Satan and demons since my conversion fourteen years earlier ...

So he was already predisposed to irrational thinking. Typical.

I note that in this writeup there is no further information on the girl. What was her diagnosis?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 2:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 424 of 438 (859807)
08-03-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Anecdotes are evidence of nothing

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14158
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 425 of 438 (859814)
08-03-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Theodoric
08-03-2019 10:46 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
I'll ask you the same thing I asked in the other thread when an opponent demanded evidence. How precisely would one go about gathering evidence for God?

Believers insist that existence itself is proof in that if something...anything exists it exists necessarily.

But I think it really is a faith decision. Without evidence. I think it was set up(designed) to be that way. You yourself said that if God(as we describe Him) really existed and you met Him face to face you would (attempt) to punch Him in the mouth for the atrocities that you yourselves deem that He has made.

But getting back to two questions.
1) Evidence. How precisely would one go about obtaining evidence for God?
2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


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jar
Member
Posts: 32675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 426 of 438 (859817)
08-03-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Phat
08-03-2019 12:31 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

1) Evidence. How precisely would one go about obtaining evidence for God?

No one, particularly believers, has ever provided any idea of how it might even be possible to find evidence of God.

Question two has absolutely no meaning and so is impossible to answer in any way that does have meaning.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14158
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 427 of 438 (859820)
08-03-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by jar
08-03-2019 12:58 PM


Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
jar writes:

Question two has absolutely no meaning and so is impossible to answer in any way that does have meaning.

Oh get over yourself! Even I can answer this question using what you have quoted before.

Q: 2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?

A: Even if all the stories about Jesus are only tales told round the campfire the message is still of value. (...) When you pray, the best you can hope for is advice on what YOU need to do.

See? Was that so difficult? Now one further question. Is God even necessary? I await the response from you, a Christian. Is the wag right? Or do we simply need to go and feed the hungry clothe the naked and comfort the sorrowful as any good secular humanists would do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 12:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18341
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 428 of 438 (859827)
08-03-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
08-03-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Phat writes:

One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?


God may have been "necessary" as an early hypothesis to explain thunder and lightning, much as phlogiston was an early hypothesis to explain combustion. But when better hypotheses are found, the old ones diminish in importance.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 1:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 429 of 438 (859841)
08-03-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
08-03-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Phat writes:

Now one further question. Is God even necessary?

Answered in Message 729 but quoted here to make it easy for you.

jar in another thread writes:

Phat, remember that not only does the atheist population in general find they can behave morally without God, there are quite a few religions that do fine without God. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism are three that I know I've discussed with you in the past.

So once again, the evidence shows that God is not necessary.

But the evidence goes even further and shows that in general over the recorded history it has been beliefs and allegiance to one God over some other God that has been the source of immoral behavior.

Beliefs are very powerful though and it is conceivable that for some people the belief that there is so vengeful critter that will punish them should they misbehave could lead to that individual behaving in a manner suitable for polite company. But again the evidence shows it can also and unfortunately far more often lead to great immorality, genocide, repression and evil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Stile
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 430 of 438 (860275)
08-06-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Thugpreacha writes:

To me that's an error in thinking. We are not our own spirituality. One simply does not use spirituality to grant themselves anything.

If you believe spirituality comes from God - of course.
But then the question remains - how do we compare if Stile's spirituality from God or Stile's spirituality from other sources is 'better?'

I propose that it's by judging the power in the sensing of spiritual ideas that one feels: happiness, comfort, peace, solace...
If you'd like to provide another method, feel free to make a suggestion.

So is Boyd lying?

I don't think so.
Sounds to me like Boyd has very little experience with trauma-victims and/or the resulting mental states it can cause and/or mental illness even.
I don't have a lot of experience myself - but even from my little experience, I don't find the situation suggesting demons or Gods in any way.

Just trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness.

I realize that anecdotal stories and testimonies do not truth make, but I have heard enough of these anecdotes to consider them.

Have you researched trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness at all?

I'm not attempting to make the point that it's one or the other.
My point is that one can just as easily explain it as the other - and if you're focusing on one over the other - it's telling about your bias more than anything else.


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 Message 422 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 2:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 431 of 438 (869486)
12-31-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by jar
08-03-2019 2:38 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Good people do good things, more or less, and bad people tend to do bad things.

But to convince good people to do bad things, you need a strong, irrational motivator such as a religion or millennialist political ideology.


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 Message 429 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 2:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 432 of 438 (869507)
12-31-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Sarah Bellum
12-31-2019 10:48 AM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Or just about any motivation. Jobs, economy, color, religion, hair styles, ethnicity, peer pressure, advertising ...

It's easy to convince good people to do bad things.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14158
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 433 of 438 (869518)
12-31-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by jar
12-31-2019 2:05 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Which would you claim to be harder? Sinning or Doing Selfless good for others?

You claim that the knowledge of good and evil was a great gift---it forced us to be responsible at any rate. And lets define sin, for the record:

Websters writes:

1a: an offense against religious or moral law
b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible
it's a sin to waste food
c: an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2a: transgression of the law of God
b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Based on that, I think it would be easy to simply try and be good and think soberly of myself than it would be to sin.

The apologists claim that none are righteous...(without Christ) and that all have sinned. Do you agree?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


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 Message 432 by jar, posted 12-31-2019 2:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by NosyNed, posted 12-31-2019 4:52 PM Phat has responded
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8933
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 434 of 438 (869523)
12-31-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Phat
12-31-2019 3:18 PM


Gifts
You claim that the knowledge of good and evil was a great gift-

Do you think it was a gift?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Phat, posted 12-31-2019 3:18 PM Phat has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 32675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 435 of 438 (869524)
12-31-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Phat
12-31-2019 3:18 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Phat writes:

The apologists claim that none are righteous...(without Christ) and that all have sinned. Do you agree?

I think it is just a stupid meaningless carny spiel. And the carny pitch about having Christ is simply another bottle of snake oil.

For example you definition 2b is another meaningless carny spiel.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Phat, posted 12-31-2019 3:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14158
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 436 of 438 (869550)
01-01-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by NosyNed
12-31-2019 4:52 PM


Re: Gifts
Myself, talking to jar writes:

You claim that the knowledge of good and evil was a great gift-

When lo and behold look who shows up! Happy New Year Ned!
NN writes:

Do you think it was a gift?

That's actually a good question. The story says that this tree was in the garden, so there would be no reason to put a poison plant in the garden now would there? This point of view adds support for the argument that knowledge is a great gift and yet must be used wisely. A&E were never taught to use it..thus they got expelled from class...but some argue that even that was supposed to happen. ringo would equate it to kicking college-age kids or mature young robins out of the nest.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by NosyNed, posted 12-31-2019 4:52 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18341
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 437 of 438 (869565)
01-02-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Phat
01-01-2020 4:56 PM


Re: Gifts
Phat writes:

A&E were never taught to use it..thus they got expelled from class...but some argue that even that was supposed to happen. ringo would equate it to kicking college-age kids or mature young robins out of the nest.


I would say the teacher was incompetent.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Phat, posted 01-01-2020 4:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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