What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?

Phat writes: I believe that all people do not want the same thing...except in that it be their own thing

I can't even agree to that

There are some people who definitely do not want "their own thing." Have you ever heard of people being "submissive?" Sometimes, this gets to the point where certain people don't want to make any decisions for themselves whatsoever... they want someone else (God even, if He'd do the job) make every decision for them.

Other people spend their entire lives searching for the way not to "want" anything at all (certain Monks and Eastern religions).

You can keep trying to come up with a single idea that works for everyone... it's rather easy for me to come up with people who do not fit the mold

Even my idea about "everyone wanting peace" is not something that everyone wants.
Some people want to hurt others, take things away from others, exalt themselves over others. I just have no moral problem sticking such people in jail or otherwise not allowing them to partake in "general society" with the rest of us who "want peace."

All people may well need the same thing.

This depends on what you mean

Like we both agree, all people need food, water, shelter.
And "mental health."

The issue is that you seem to think that "mental health" can be narrowed down to a single, specific idea that would work for everyone if they just let it. (Example: believing in God.)

My idea is that there is no single, specific idea that works for everyone, and we should acknowledge that people are different, and therefore have different mental-health needs.

You seem to be able to understand that people are different... but then refuse to accept that these differences might cause them to have different needs.

Then you offer single solutions that work for "many" (more like "some").
And when continuously countered with factual people who certainly do not accept such solutions... what do you do then?

Are they lying?
Is this a huge conspiracy against Christianity?
Is it possible that they really, sincerely, simply want something different? Simply need something different?

We are taught that many will seek the broad path and few will find the narrow path.

I fully agree with this statement.
I also think that if you're trying to sway everyone to any single narrow path... you're going to make many miss theirs entirely. You'd be doing more damage than good.

The whole analogy of many mountains, many paths sounds a bit like pantheism to me...

Could be. But just because others are allowed to follow different paths, doesn't mean you have to follow them, or even believe in them, or believe in anything other than your own path. It simply means you don't try to force your way onto others. If your way is so amazing, they will see it for themselves in time anyway. If they have better results elsewhere... why would you want that to be taken away from them? If someone else thought they were having better results than you, would you be okay with them taking away all your beliefs? Try to think of other people as equals, with equal opportunity to make their own choices based on their own personal experiences - same as you have.

As far as our willingness to accept Him should He knock, I can only respond by quoting Paul. Rom 3:10-18 ... Perhaps Paul felt that everyone needed to believe as he did.

Maybe. Sounds to me like Paul never spent any time with a happy child

But, seriously, it sounds to me like that passage should have some context around it. Sounds like half-of-something for some point someone's trying to make. Without the rest of the context, though... I can't make further comment.

For one thing, there are many people who honestly and openly seek God and simply have never found Him. Paul can say otherwise all he wants, just as he can say water isn't wet or that the sun isn't bright. Saying things that are false does not change reality.

If your way is so amazing, they will see it for themselves in time anyway.

True.

For one thing, there are many people who honestly and openly seek God and simply have never found Him.

Again, true. I personally believe that God finds us...we don't find Him unless we are making Him up.

Stile writes: I became an atheist when I realized that there's nothing unique about the benefits I was getting through my honest efforts towards God and religion.

I might suggest that by looking for benefits you were actually turning away from God. The Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others.

GDR writes: I might suggest that by looking for benefits you were actually turning away from God.

Understood. Perhaps my phrasing wasn't as clear as it could have been.

First off: I was also not looking for benefits.

The Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others.

My personal philosophy is very similar.
My point is this:

The results of "the Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others" are exactly the same as simply "living by not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others."

Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

I realized that the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion didn't add anything to the actual idea of "living a good life and helping others."

In general:
The lives Christians lead are not better than the lives non-Christians lead.
The people Christians help are not helped better than people non-Christians help.

This realization is what led me to become an atheist.

Phat writes: I personally believe that God finds us...

You sound like a Calvinist. Maybe there are some of us that God isn't looking for?

Phat writes: ...we don't find Him unless we are making Him up.

I agree completely.

Maybe there are some of us that God isn't looking for?

Possible, though I believe that everyone deserves an opportunity. And why wouldn't God love everybody? Im struggling to avoid making this up....

Stile writes: My personal philosophy is very similar. My point is this: The results of "the Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others" are exactly the same as simply "living by not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others." Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

Sure, but that doesn't give evidence one way or the other about the basic truth of the Christian faith. I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Stile writes: The lives Christians lead are not better than the lives non-Christians lead.

I function in both environments and my experience doesn't reflect that. For example, in my Christian environment we are sponsoring several refugee families and in my secular environment there is more concern about problems they might cause when they get here and would rather we weren't doing it all.

Phat writes: there may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top.

ringo writes: Are we going up the mountain or down?

Good point. From Jesus perspective, He alone is at the top. As He looks down He sees many paths leading to many people. Thus, Stiles point about everyone being unique fits the analogy.

I believe that God finds us. He will travel the path that uniquely reaches you. You will, however, have to accept Him for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.

Stile writes: Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

The question in my mind is whether you would accept Him on His terms or whether you would reject Him on your terms. You seem to say that you have found what is best for you but He may want you to accept what He thinks is best for you rather than what you personally feel more comfortable with.

Just a thought.

And by the way, when I say "His terms" I mean His personally and not what religion tells you to think.

Keep hypothetical with me, here

GDR writes: Sure, but that doesn't give evidence one way or the other about the basic truth of the Christian faith.

No, it doesn't.
I also wasn't attempting to do any such thing.

I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Are you sure about that?
I got my ideas mostly from Eastern religions, really.

I function in both environments and my experience doesn't reflect that. For example, in my Christian environment we are sponsoring several refugee families and in my secular environment there is more concern about problems they might cause when they get here and would rather we weren't doing it all.

The idea that one person, who is a Christian, thinks Christianity is the better... fits exactly with the idea I'm trying to describe.

My personal experience is different from yours.
My personal experience being different also fits exactly with my idea.

How does it fit in with yours? Am I lying? Am I mistaken? Is it impossible for some-certain group of atheists to be nicer than some-certain group of Christians? Are such 'Christians' not really Christians, so it doesn't count in your opinion? Are nice, helpful 'atheists' not really atheists in your opinion?

Phat writes: The question in my mind is whether you would accept Him on His terms or whether you would reject Him on your terms.

That depends on what you're trying to say.

What are my terms?
What are His?

I can tell you that if God was good and helpful and awesome, I'd accept Him without issue.
I can also tell you that if God is powerful enough to stop little girls from being raped... yet He allows it to continue... I would not accept Him.

You seem to say that you have found what is best for you but He may want you to accept what He thinks is best for you rather than what you personally feel more comfortable with.

A possibility, for sure.
Again, taking extremely serious events with very harmful consequences... if God wants me to be "okay" with allowing people to rape little girls... I'm just not going to do that.

If God wants me to be "okay" with helping other people live the best lives we can, I'll certainly get on board.

And by the way, when I say "His terms" I mean His personally and not what religion tells you to think.

This statement doesn't clarify anything for me... I still don't know what you mean by "His terms."

Keep hypothetical with me, here

I consider all discussions involving God to be hypothetical

Phat writes: And why wouldn't God love everybody?

You tell me. Why would God torture anybody eternally, even if they supposedly "chose" it? Why would He call that "love"?

Phat writes: You will, however, have to accept Him for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.

Why doesn't He do the same for us?

Phat writes: You will, however, have to accept Him(God) for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.

ringo writes: Why doesn't He do the same for us?

You mean accept us how we are?

Think of the possible or potential implications.

And this assumes that there needs to be someone in charge. I suppose you could argue for anarchy.

ringo writes: You tell me. Why would God torture anybody eternally, even if they supposedly "chose" it? Why would He call that "love"?

The way I see it, they actually tortured themselves by making bad choices. I suppose you could argue why God won't help them get back on the right path...if indeed you even believe that there is such a thing as a right path.....