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Author Topic:   The Flood, fossils, & the geologic evidence
jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 238 of 377 (620131)
06-14-2011 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Chuck77
06-14-2011 2:26 AM


There was no Biblical Flood.
Chuck writes:

So, I guess if I were to rephrase my question it would simply be, where is the flood layer?

There are lots of flood layers, lots and lots of flood layers.

There is no Biblical Flood level because the Biblical Flood never happened and anyone claiming that there was a Biblical Flood at this point in history is simply wrong at best, lying quite often.

The Biblical Flood has been totally refuted unless the God that caused it is also a lying, cheating scum bag that then erased all of the evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 243 of 377 (620204)
06-14-2011 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by DrJones*
06-14-2011 7:31 PM


Re: The Other POV
What is even funnier, we actually have samples of the atmosphere from long before the imagined Biblical Flood that show there is almost no differences, samples from amber, from ice cores, from inside rock, from chemical reactions.

Buz has been told all this many times but simply continues to post total falsehoods.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 242 by DrJones*, posted 06-14-2011 7:31 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 245 of 377 (620209)
06-14-2011 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Buzsaw
06-14-2011 7:44 PM


No Buz, assuming only realirty and honesty.
No Buz, once again what you post is simply another falsehood.

It is NOT assuming anything.

The Biblical Flood has been totally refuted as you have been shown repeatedly.

The air bubbles caught in ice have been sampled and found to be not much different than today.

Specimens like Oetzi who would have been contemporary with Adam show that nothing was much different.

Your claims are simply repeated falsehoods.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 268 of 377 (620996)
06-22-2011 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by JonF
06-22-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Rates are a problem for creationists
Yup. I have yet to find a YEC that can explain how the lowest exposed material at the Grand Canyon got formed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 279 of 377 (621345)
06-25-2011 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Chuck77
06-25-2011 2:36 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
I believe the flood happened but not knowing what the earth looked like before the "flood" how would I know how the evidence against it is supposed to look?

But we know what the earth looked like before the date most folk use for the imagined flood, we know quite well and from many, many different lines of evidence.

There is also the genetic bottleneck signature that totally and completely refutes the Biblical flood myths.

jar writes:

quote:
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

and in Genesis 7:

quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.

If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.

Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).

Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.

We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.

BUT...

If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.

Talk about a big RED flag.

That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.

So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.

If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.

If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.


Finally, there are no and can be no Creation Scientists.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Chuck77, posted 06-25-2011 2:36 AM Chuck77 has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 285 of 377 (621377)
06-25-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Coragyps
06-25-2011 12:45 PM


Re: Here's the way it looks right now
We also have examples of catastrophic events that would raise mountains, and guess what, such events leave evidence.

Raise up a mass the size of even a small mountain ovr a year, ten years, one hundred year, even a thousand year period and I promise you it will leave evidence behind.

The idea that the Biblical Flood ever happened is quite simply idiotic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 292 of 377 (621487)
06-26-2011 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Chuck77
06-26-2011 1:54 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
Sorry jar, this isn't the religious section. If I can't use the Bible as evidence for The flood (or anything for that matter) then you can't use it as evidence against it. If you want to go over to the religious section and discuss verse by verse exactly how the flood happened, what took place, how many "clean" and "unclean" animals were aboard etc etc. then ok.

That comment makes it pretty obvious that either you did not read what I posted or were unable to understand what I posted. If it is the former, go back and actually read the quoted material again. If it is the latter then simply tell me and I'll try to explain it to you again.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 288 by Chuck77, posted 06-26-2011 1:54 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 299 of 377 (621647)
06-27-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Taq
06-27-2011 4:58 PM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
One thing he should remember is that it was folk that believed in the Biblical Flood that finally totally refuted it.

The idea that there was a Biblical Flood simply became totally untenable over 200 years ago.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 298 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 4:58 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Taq, posted 06-27-2011 5:34 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
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Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 313 of 377 (622035)
06-30-2011 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Chuck77
06-30-2011 4:14 AM


Re: Response to Zen and Taq
Chuck writes:

BTW, im not saying that ID is anymore "Scientific" than Creationsim but I do happen to think it is a little more "progressed" so to speak than Creationism. I know some/a lot think they are the same but that's a discussion for another thread.

Actually ID is nothing but Creationism that was repackaged in an attempt to fool the courts.

You're headed in the right direction IMHO, and speaking as one Christian to another, keep questioning, keep challenging.

If it helps you during this maturing process, understand that Science is simply "How God did it."

Creationism though, and Intelligent Design, are absolutely nothing but a Carny Con Job.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 310 by Chuck77, posted 06-30-2011 4:14 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 317 of 377 (622192)
07-01-2011 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by deerbreh
07-01-2011 2:36 PM


Re: Population genetics evidence?
It is worse than that. The bottle neck would show up in every species living today.

The idea that there really was a flood like either of the Biblical myths is just plain silly.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 316 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2011 2:36 PM deerbreh has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 351 of 377 (628388)
08-09-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by TrueCreation
08-09-2011 9:25 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
Welcome back sir, I have missed your presence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by TrueCreation, posted 08-09-2011 9:25 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 370 of 377 (635978)
10-03-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by rueh
10-03-2011 2:17 PM


Re: bottlenecks
If the populations were actually reduced to the size listed in the stories, it's doubtful that any of those would survive and they would simply become subsumed into similar species that moved in after the event.

We know though that if it was a local even we can with very high confidence make a few conclusions.

That critters living today are unlikely to be descended from any of the critters in the stories.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by rueh, posted 10-03-2011 2:17 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by rueh, posted 10-03-2011 2:46 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 373 of 377 (636019)
10-03-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by rueh
10-03-2011 2:46 PM


Re: bottlenecks
I'm sure there are literally thousands if not millions of such examples.

The issue is even if such evidence could be found that would not support the accounts in the stories.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by rueh, posted 10-03-2011 2:46 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by rueh, posted 10-04-2011 11:36 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 377 of 377 (636161)
10-04-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by rueh
10-04-2011 11:36 AM


Re: bottlenecks
Well, the area is one that has seen many floods, particularly if you look at the Tigris Euphrates area and since there is no sure date for the stories it is almost certain that you can find many flood events that could be the origin of the myths.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by rueh, posted 10-04-2011 11:36 AM rueh has not yet responded

  
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