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Author Topic:   The Flood, fossils, & the geologic evidence
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 565 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 346 of 377 (626801)
07-31-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Larni
07-31-2011 10:16 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
Clouds?

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Haha I know. But, you gotta remember, we're talking about the Bible. No clouds could have existed until after the Great Flood since rainbows didn't exist.

That means either water was never in the air before then -or- water was completely opaque -or- light didn't refract at all so the world was in black and white (not grey even).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Larni, posted 07-31-2011 10:16 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 347 of 377 (626869)
07-31-2011 5:58 PM


Terminal topic abandonment - Closing
Recent messages have had minimal at best contact with the topic theme, and most were not even anywhere in the vicinity of the topic theme.

Closing this one down. Propose a new topic if you wish to revive something from this topic.

Adminnemooseus


Please be familiar with the various topics and other links in the "Essential Links", found in the top of the page menu. Amongst other things, this is where to find where to report various forum problems.

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12578
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 348 of 377 (627002)
08-01-2011 9:43 AM


Topic Is Reopened
Hello everyone!

I don't think Adminnemooseus was aware that I was already moderating the topic, so I've reopened it.

Note to IamJoseph: Please stay on-topic. Adminnemooseus is a bit quicker on the trigger than I am with regard to threads drifting off-topic, but obviously we both thought you were off-topic. I'm having trouble keeping you on-topic in other threads. If you don't control this tendency yourself then eventually, to make it stop as it consumes a great deal of moderator time, I'll have to suspend you. I know you believe you're making sense, but the true measure of whether you're making sense is if others think you are making sense.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 565 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 349 of 377 (627192)
08-01-2011 10:08 AM


More than a little unfair
I would like to point out that it is more than a little unfair to expect Iamjoseph to stay on topic in a thread asking for evidence for a myth.

Obviously since it's make believe, there's not going to be any real evidence.

We all know that. Hell, even Joseph knows that. If he didn't, he'd be trying to present actual evidence rather than randomly quoting stuff out of the Bible.

The more I think about it, the more unfair the whole site seems.

Instead of EVC shouldn't it be RVF? Reality vs Fantasy forums?


    
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 350 of 377 (628386)
08-09-2011 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Chuck77
06-30-2011 2:58 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
I do not feel that my methods were misdirected, although they were always sincere and passionate, if not obsessive. In fact, my participation in this forum, and the latter content of my 'creationist' investigations (around 2003-2005) was rather calculated. Although I was not fully conscious of it, my participation quickly became a sort of pedagogical tool which supplemented for the fact that I did not yet know how to improve our knowledge of the universe by "doing" novel science. And although I was not aware of this apparent incapacity, I did what I felt was best: to improve my knowledge of a mind in the face of the universe. Although I began as a genuine boring creationist, I was captivated by the values and the hopes of science, and so always tried my best to proceed in that accord.

Despite the absurdity of my objects of former affection, I feel that it could not have been better. My mode of thought was largely a game of conjecture and refutation, and no hypothesis could provide a greater wealth of the latter than the posits of young earth creationism. However, this posture inevitably resulted in a rather continuous string of tragedy. This familiarity prepared me for the billows of contemporary scientific force, although I feel that the high seas of ‘mainstream’ science are far softer on honest spirits than the defeating blows on that vessel of absurdity, abuse, and sinister coercion. For me, most of the real problems of scientific participation now are merely bureaucratic.

In any case, I feel that much of the apparent obfuscation and muddled thinking exhibited in my discussions before I left were due to my obsessions with rhetorical precision and the experimental nature of my approach. A regrettable aspect of this approach is that I would present arguments with very little interest in colloquial interpretation—I would even leave rhetorical traps for those who lacked a certain level of interest in my arguments. This is probably most obvious when I argued on the nature of ‘belief’, ‘evidence’ or of my presentation of a problem of ‘underdevelopment’, resulting in a lot of talking across purposes, much frustration, and ultimately the ‘what is good science’ thread. I would have apologized if I fully understood why I proceeded in argument as I did.

A student of nature should not fear philosophy so much. We are not automata.

Edited by TrueCreation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Chuck77, posted 06-30-2011 2:58 AM Chuck77 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by jar, posted 08-09-2011 9:29 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 353 by Chuck77, posted 08-10-2011 6:11 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 351 of 377 (628388)
08-09-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by TrueCreation
08-09-2011 9:25 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
Welcome back sir, I have missed your presence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by TrueCreation, posted 08-09-2011 9:25 AM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 352 of 377 (628518)
08-10-2011 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Nuggin
07-31-2011 10:09 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
quote:
Show something expanding which is not finite.

quote:
The Universe.

The universe had a beginning, how could it be infinite?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Nuggin, posted 07-31-2011 10:09 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Admin, posted 08-10-2011 8:15 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 353 of 377 (628519)
08-10-2011 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by TrueCreation
08-09-2011 9:25 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
Hi TrueCreation, i've heard "a lot" about you. Nice to "meet" you.

So, if you've read back a little ways, maybe you've seen me try to make a case for CPT some. althought not as detailed as you. It's come a long way since you've been here.

Do you have anything new to add concerning CPT? Or have you totally abandon CPT?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by TrueCreation, posted 08-09-2011 9:25 AM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12578
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 354 of 377 (628528)
08-10-2011 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Portillo
08-10-2011 6:10 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
Hi Portillo,

IamJoseph introduced the universe into the discussion and was alerted to the fact that he was off-topic. If you and Nuggin would like to discuss the universe then you should find a thread in the Big Bang and Cosmology forum.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Portillo, posted 08-10-2011 6:10 AM Portillo has not yet responded

    
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 355 of 377 (628576)
08-10-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Chuck77
08-10-2011 6:11 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
I have nothing to add to CPT which would make it feasible, although I could doubtless be far more annoying with my current knowledge than I was. Although obviously not my invention, my CPT investigations constitutes a thought experiment which has served its purpose. Having said that, and having seen some of your messages in this thread I wouldn't abandon it yourself simply because you feel you are over your head here. The important thing is that you have recognized that it is not uniquely implicated by the data (ie, 'it has no evidence'). Just because it is probably wrong doesn't mean it it isn't useful. As long as you do not demand that it must also be useful to others you are fine.

You've said that you want to become a geologist and do research some day. I think that an important early realization is that we do science because we want to explain two things: the structure of things, and the phenomena responsible for this structure. In disciplines like geology you will find that arguably the most important part of explaining what is observed is the role of time. Processes in geology operate over very long time scales, although the Earth has such a complicated surface seeing the role of time is not always straightforward, requiring an understanding of numerous processes which have compounding effects.

A few tips: I would read as much literature as you can. Definitely get some basic texts, but do not be afraid of more advanced material, or even the technical literature. What I did for years was read something I was interested in that was way over my head, but I would read it carefully and provide much ad revenue to dictionary.com and google when I came across words or concepts I did not understand. Become student members of GSA (www.geosociety.org) and AGU (www.agu.org), it's cheap and easy (I joined AGU when I was 16). Improve your understanding of mathematics, and perhaps learn how to use Excel and MatLab.

For me, my principal fascination was explaining the structure (mostly thermal structure) of oceanic lithosphere (the cold boundary layer laying above warm ambient mantle extending from the seafloor). Joe Meert has a page explaining the problem here:

http://gondwanaresearch.com/oceans.htm

I am now doing novel research on the structure, properties, and behavior of oceanic lithosphere and should have my own stuff in the literature very soon. I can tell you there is probably few other things on Earth which should be more fascinating to someone entertaining the idea that the Earth is young. Radiometric dating will be interesting for similar reasons, although note that pretty much all of geochronology is geochemistry. In your studies, find challenges like these and think about the data and the models/theory used to explain the data.

More regarding CPT: If the earth is young, there really is no other possible explanation but CPT. You barely even need science to demonstrate subduction and seafloor spreading as they are clearly observed. I suppose the principal hurdle of CPT is simply the explanation of oceanic lithosphere as mentioned earlier. I talked with John Baumgardner a few times and the best I could do was envision rapid cooling driven by a sort of runaway thermoelastic fracturing driven by hydrothermal circulation, but I couldn't explain the time dependence of this process. Even if this explanation were sound (for which there is no evidence), the biggest problem is that there is no mechanism to transport heat from this cooling, and there are many other sources of heat to account for as well such as surface volcanism and radioactivity (which Baumgardner and the RATE group agree must be accounted for). In the end, Baumgardner admitted that the cooling process must itself be magical. I believe this is around the time that I started to fully realize the absurdity of it all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Chuck77, posted 08-10-2011 6:11 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Taq, posted 08-10-2011 5:07 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 08-11-2011 8:32 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 356 of 377 (628577)
08-10-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by TrueCreation
08-10-2011 4:54 PM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
Quotes from a couple of your messages:

TC writes:

For me, most of the real problems of scientific participation now are merely bureaucratic.

I could right a book about that, but since we would bore everyone here is the short version. The bureaucratic overhead and oversight of research is too much. I am all for accountability for spending, human subject protections, and animal protections. Don't get me wrong. However, when your administrative paperwork is 10 times the size of your grant something is wrong. So much of a PI's time is taken up dealing with administrative BS that it is a wonder that any science gets done at all. Anyway, on to the science.

In the end, Baumgardner admitted that the cooling process must itself be magical. I believe this is around the time that I started to fully realize the absurdity of it all.

This sums up the entire folly of creation "science". They work so hard to give creationism a sciency veneer, but when pressed they still have to evoke magical mechanisms to explain away the data. They work so hard to use science, but as soon as the data points away from their hypothesis they invoke the supernatural to put it back on course. The RATE experiments involving helium in zircons is also a great example of this mentatility. Increased rates of radioactive decay necessarily involve an increase in heat production. So how does the RATE team explain away this problem? Well, God is magical, doncha know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by TrueCreation, posted 08-10-2011 4:54 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 357 of 377 (628597)
08-11-2011 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by TrueCreation
08-10-2011 4:54 PM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
TrueCreation writes:

More regarding CPT: If the earth is young...

Everyone's probably heard the old saw about taking care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. It's the same with science. Follow the details where they lead and the theories will take care of themselves.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by TrueCreation, posted 08-10-2011 4:54 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by TrueCreation, posted 08-11-2011 2:08 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 358 of 377 (628628)
08-11-2011 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Percy
08-11-2011 8:32 AM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 08-11-2011 8:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by roxrkool, posted 08-22-2011 10:49 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 969 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 359 of 377 (630201)
08-22-2011 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by TrueCreation
08-11-2011 2:08 PM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
I haven't read more than your last few posts, so I may have missed it, but what I would like to know is if you are still a YEC.

It's good to read your posts again. Hope you have been well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by TrueCreation, posted 08-11-2011 2:08 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by TrueCreation, posted 09-01-2011 2:05 AM roxrkool has not yet responded

    
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 360 of 377 (631433)
09-01-2011 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by roxrkool
08-22-2011 10:49 PM


Re: Brief notes on the "flood"
I am no longer a YEC. I have been well, and it is good to see that others and 'old friends' are still enjoying these conversations. I have certainly missed mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by roxrkool, posted 08-22-2011 10:49 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

  
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