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Author Topic:   The Flood, fossils, & the geologic evidence
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1953 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 361 of 377 (631438)
09-01-2011 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Butterflytyrant
07-31-2011 11:04 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
quote:
seriously?

Very.

quote:

I will rephrase.

WILL you provide your sources for each one of the claims.

I was not enquiring as to your ability to provide the sources, I wanted you to actually supply them.


The Q is more important than the A. This is what should be monitored; if it not, one can conclude answering it is ok.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Admin, posted 09-01-2011 6:20 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12630
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


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Message 362 of 377 (631460)
09-01-2011 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by IamJoseph
09-01-2011 2:42 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
Hello IamJoseph,

If you're not going to constructively contribute to discussion of this thread's topic then please stop participating here. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1953 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 363 of 377 (631471)
09-01-2011 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Admin
09-01-2011 6:20 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
The most constuctive factor is the text. I pointed out the relevant textual reference which affirms my position; the others shamelessly left this out. Hello?

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 Message 362 by Admin, posted 09-01-2011 6:20 AM Admin has responded

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12630
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


(1)
Message 364 of 377 (631479)
09-01-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by IamJoseph
09-01-2011 6:53 AM


Re: The world is not limited to your ignorance
The Bible is not the topic here. Please stop posting to this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1953 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 365 of 377 (631480)
09-01-2011 7:26 AM


Looks like I made a great error. This opening statement by the thread's author mislead me:

quote:
Being a six day creationist I believe that the Genesis flood (chapters6-9) is just as literal as the creation account itself.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 367 by Taq, posted 09-01-2011 11:23 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12630
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 366 of 377 (631482)
09-01-2011 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by IamJoseph
09-01-2011 7:26 AM


I agree that it would be a mistake to take the originator's opening self characterization as a statement of the thread's topic. His second sentence and the subsequent presentation of evidence is why this was promoted as a science thread:

Calypsis4 writes:

I intend to bring forth extensive evidence that the world was once entirely destroyed by that great catclysm and that that event accounts for the multiplied billions of fossils in the earth.

If you would like to discuss evidence for the flood then please proceed, by all means.

But let me add that you are exhausting moderator patience. The science forums are for science. I know you want to discuss the Bible, but that's what the religious threads are for. The moderator team has been very clear about this with you, over and over again. You can use the Bible as the source of inspiration for all your ideas, but if you want to discuss those ideas in the science forums then you must support them with evidence, not Bible discussion.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Taq
Member
Posts: 8087
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 367 of 377 (631504)
09-01-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by IamJoseph
09-01-2011 7:26 AM


Looks like I made a great error. This opening statement by the thread's author mislead me:

To clarify Admin's point, what we are looking for in this thread is evidence that would lead to the conclusion that there was a recent global flood. IOW, if the flood did happen then someone should be able to follow the evidence to this conclusion without needing to read one word of the Bible.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by IamJoseph, posted 09-01-2011 7:26 AM IamJoseph has responded

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1953 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 368 of 377 (631537)
09-01-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Taq
09-01-2011 11:23 AM


quote:
To clarify Admin's point, what we are looking for in this thread is evidence that would lead to the conclusion that there was a recent global flood.

Agreed with such a premise. After all, the Hebrew writings, as opposed the NT and Quran, happens to be the most credible writings humanity possesses, making it news #1 to dislodge any minutae error - this is human nature in all things. However, your error, like of all others here apparently, is your use of the word 'IOW' and 'GLOBAL':

quote:

IOW, if the flood did happen then someone should be able to follow the evidence to this conclusion without needing to read one word of the Bible.


Why did you omit the term 'GLOBAL' above? There is no credibility in omitting fulcrum criteria of a text. Apples and oranges apply!

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


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rueh
Member (Idle past 1946 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 369 of 377 (635976)
10-03-2011 2:17 PM


bottlenecks
In many posts throughout this forum it has been suggested that if the Noachian flood was worldwide we should see genetic bottlenecks in all the species worldwide. It has also been suggested that the flood presented in Genesis represents a local flood, so therefore the lack of a bottleneck present in all species does not falsify the idea of a local flood. My question is would a local flood also leave a genetic marker of a bottleneck for the species within the locally defined area? If so, is this what we actually see when we compare the genetic signatures of animals indigenous to the area? Obviously I think we would have to consider just how local of a flood we are talking about. What is our minimum threshold where we should see some sort of marker contained within various species genetics?

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
Opening your mind to imagination shouldn't close it to reality.
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by jar, posted 10-03-2011 2:24 PM rueh has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31465
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 370 of 377 (635978)
10-03-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by rueh
10-03-2011 2:17 PM


Re: bottlenecks
If the populations were actually reduced to the size listed in the stories, it's doubtful that any of those would survive and they would simply become subsumed into similar species that moved in after the event.

We know though that if it was a local even we can with very high confidence make a few conclusions.

That critters living today are unlikely to be descended from any of the critters in the stories.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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rueh
Member (Idle past 1946 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 371 of 377 (635979)
10-03-2011 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by jar
10-03-2011 2:24 PM


Re: bottlenecks
Makes sense, after all as soon as one rabbit gets eaten then it is goodbye for all the rabbits in that area. The same would be true for any prey species. Once all the prey is gone then it is goodbye for the predators as well. Is there any way to analyze if this is in fact the case from a genetic stand point? Is there any animal species that are exclusive to the area where a local flood could have occurred? If so, then is there any way to tell if they were there pre-flood? Or if they were transplants from post flood populations? Simply moving in to populate an uninhabited area.

Edited by rueh, : spelling


'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
Opening your mind to imagination shouldn't close it to reality.
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by jar, posted 10-03-2011 2:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by hooah212002, posted 10-03-2011 4:20 PM rueh has responded
 Message 373 by jar, posted 10-03-2011 5:53 PM rueh has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 372 of 377 (635993)
10-03-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by rueh
10-03-2011 2:46 PM


Re: bottlenecks
Wouldn't these be the types of experiments we should expect from proponents of the flood? Would not a good experiment make where they test known/recent floods for changes in animals? For example: you could study biodiversity pre and post Hurricane Katrina and see if there is significant change in animal poulation in the afflicted area.*

*note: I'm not a scientist so my study as written is very poor, but hopefully got the point across.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by rueh, posted 10-03-2011 2:46 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by rueh, posted 10-04-2011 8:14 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31465
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 373 of 377 (636019)
10-03-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by rueh
10-03-2011 2:46 PM


Re: bottlenecks
I'm sure there are literally thousands if not millions of such examples.

The issue is even if such evidence could be found that would not support the accounts in the stories.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by rueh, posted 10-03-2011 2:46 PM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by rueh, posted 10-04-2011 11:36 AM jar has responded

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 1946 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 374 of 377 (636130)
10-04-2011 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by hooah212002
10-03-2011 4:20 PM


Re: bottlenecks
hooah writes:

Wouldn't these be the types of experiments we should expect from proponents of the flood?

What? Why in the world would they need to conduct any experiments? They already know what the answer is gonna be.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
Opening your mind to imagination shouldn't close it to reality.
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by hooah212002, posted 10-03-2011 4:20 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by hooah212002, posted 10-04-2011 8:16 AM rueh has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 375 of 377 (636131)
10-04-2011 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by rueh
10-04-2011 8:14 AM


Re: bottlenecks
Yes, and I agree. However, the scenario I painted was the one where the flood propontist was an honest individual.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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 Message 374 by rueh, posted 10-04-2011 8:14 AM rueh has not yet responded

    
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