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Author Topic:   Do the religious want scientific enquiry to end?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 16 of 111 (529163)
10-08-2009 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 1:25 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
I don't mean to nitpick/stray off topic/offend you, but you keep mentioning "the richness of faith" or some such. Could you elaborate on that please?
I only ask because it seems to me that you are asserting that everyone should have some sort of faith in order to be fulfilled. Why? For me, seeking "faith", so to speak, could possibly be a sure fire way to lead to being let down.
If I am too far off topic, kindly tell me and ignore this post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 1:25 PM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 2:02 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 111 (529166)
10-08-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 1:25 PM


Re: Thinking
Ultimately, it is the fundamentalist that wants an end to scientific inquiry, that are constantly driving this issue, that believe that science and religion are incompatible. But ending scientific inquiry robs humanity of its mind.
Fundamentalists don't want you to think, just to believe.
And their shamans will tell you what to believe.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 18 of 111 (529167)
10-08-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Briterican
10-08-2009 1:08 PM


In my opinion the only way science and religion can complement each other is if your religion is very very very ambiguous, which tends not to be the case with any religion.
Well, I would say that is true of most religions. That's why I admire the Buddhist ideas and why I have incorporated them into my own way of thinking.
Buddha made sure that his followers didn't codify anything to dogma. He didn't want them to worship him as a prophet or as a god. All Buddha wanted from his followers was that they spread the message of enlightenment and how to achieve it.
The thing is, Buddha said that there were many paths to enlightenment. In his own life he began as a prince and indulged in every kind of vice. But he felt his life was empty. Then he gave up everything and lived the poor life. But that too was empty. What he realized upon reflection was that there was a Middle Way that incorporated all paths.
When he taught his philosophy, he never wanted it to contain any sort of dogma or any sort of ritual. What he wanted people to do was to meditate on their own life and their own experiences and to gain wisdom from it. From that wisdom, he said, you would be on the Middle Way to Enlightenment to which the ultimate goal is Nirvana, or the obliteration of the self and incorporation into the Universe.
I do hope that I got it right though. Anyway, the main point is that Buddhism is a religion very accepting of reality. All it concerns itself with is Enlightenment and the path to Nirvana.
If you like to learn more, please check your local library.
The more you know...

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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 19 of 111 (529170)
10-08-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by hooah212002
10-08-2009 1:32 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
Well, no. You don't need religion. But sometimes you do need a little faith. For example, Obama's first few months in office have been a disappointment to his supporters. In American culture that expects instantaneous results, the fact that Obama seemingly hasn't fulfilled many of his campaign promises has been saddening. Even worse, Obama has had trouble getting legislation through a Democrat controlled Congress. The realist expects that Obama will not be able to accomplish much and will just be another Washington politician. But there are people who still believe in Obama and that he will succeed in turning America around. And many of those supporters will go out there and work hard to help Obama succeed. That's the power of faith. Sometimes, faith is important to mobilizing people into doing something, even if it seems that the chance of it happening is slim, even if the majority is against you. When used well, it can change the world for the better. When used poorly, it can harm the world.
This is something that I believe science doesn't supply in huge amounts. Perhaps I am wrong and science can make something like that happen through facts and figures. But even if I am, nothing much would change from my life.

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 Message 16 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 1:32 PM hooah212002 has replied

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 Message 21 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 2:19 PM Izanagi has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 20 of 111 (529173)
10-08-2009 2:15 PM


Scientific inquiry was the the fruit of the christian worldview and so I doubt any christian would want it to stop ...
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 2:20 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 10-08-2009 2:44 PM slevesque has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 21 of 111 (529175)
10-08-2009 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 2:02 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
I'm still not following. You claim we need faith, then use teh POTUS as an example? As much as the right would have you believe..he is NOT the messiah. We have "faith" (i would say trust, but for this instance, I will say faith) because we assume he has good intentions, since he is who we voted for. We know what the POTUS is supposed to do, what the position exemplifies. There are laws. There are procedures. There is impeachment if he fucks up.
Religious faith, or faith about the after life, on the other hand, is nothing of the sort. You can't "know" anything about it. It is blind. You can't know until it happens.
{abe} of all the faiths out there, the chance for yours to be the right one is infinitely small.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 22 of 111 (529176)
10-08-2009 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by slevesque
10-08-2009 2:15 PM


....unless it goes against what their doctrine says, of course.

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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 23 of 111 (529178)
10-08-2009 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by hooah212002
10-08-2009 2:19 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
We have "faith" (i would say trust, but for this instance, I will say faith) because we assume he has good intentions, since he is who we voted for.
Going back to wiki
quote:
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Faith in the broader sense seems almost a necessary thing. We use faith to talk about the future because sometimes what we expect from the future doesn't rest on a logical proof or material evidence. It is a concept that relies on the person believing something will happen even if there is no reason to believe that it will.
Religious faith, or faith about the after life, on the other hand, is nothing of the sort. You can't "know" anything about it. It is blind. You can't know until it happens.
But with anything you have faith in, you never know until it does or does not happen. Even though we could vote Obama out of office in 2012, does that mean we know Obama will fulfill his campaign promises? Is there anything that suggests that he will definitely do what he said he would do? The point is that we won't know if our trust in Obama is justified until the end of his first term in 2012. It's just like I won't know if there is an afterlife until I die.
That's what faith is - believing in something and not knowing if that belief is justified until it does or doesn't happen. It doesn't matter that what it is we believe in is a person or a flying spaghetti monster or that our knowing if our faith was justified will occur tomorrow or decades from now, it's still a belief.

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 Message 21 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 2:19 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 24 of 111 (529179)
10-08-2009 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 2:34 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
I shall concede, as anything more I have to say will take this further off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 2:34 PM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 2:45 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 25 of 111 (529181)
10-08-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
10-08-2009 2:20 PM


Of course, which is why I am the last person to say my personal faith is right. I don't know if what I believe is right. When I do know, if I ever can find out, I most certainly won't be able to tell anyone.
People who say their faith is the right one are lying - there is nothing to prove that they are right. That's why more and more Christians are beginning to believe that maybe no faith is the "right" one and that maybe all faiths have something to offer. There are Christians who hold less to doctrine and more to "faith." That is, they are willing to believe but are not willing to say that their belief is the "right" one. They do not shackle themselves to dogma, instead they follow the spirit of the religion which is essentially to guide them on the path to being better people.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 26 of 111 (529183)
10-08-2009 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by slevesque
10-08-2009 2:15 PM


Umm..No!
Scientific inquiry originated with the Ionians and subsequently the Greeks. It was entirely pagan and co-opted by societies that were religious because ... well ... it works.
Just because you can "frame" science in a Christian worldview (exploring God's mind) does not mean it was the fruit of the Christian worldview. In fact Christianity has done far more to hamstring science then it has to develop it.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 27 of 111 (529184)
10-08-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by hooah212002
10-08-2009 2:39 PM


Re: It's less complicated than you think
Oh, I hope you never concede, but constantly grow and change your ideas. And as long as you are a decent person, and I believe that you are, then it really doesn't matter if you believe in God or Zeus or nothing at all.
Sorry for being off-topic.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 28 of 111 (529186)
10-08-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
10-08-2009 2:20 PM


There is a HUGE difference between wanting scientific inquiry to stop, which is the topic of this thread, and wanting a given scientific theory to be viewed as false.
A scientific theory can go against a doctrine, but you can't really equivocate the two concepts.
Anyhow, I don't really get how the OP got the idea that, because a certain religious group does not accept a given scientific theory, then that they probably want (or should want) scientific inquiry to end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 2:20 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by hooah212002, posted 10-08-2009 3:48 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 44 by Briterican, posted 10-08-2009 4:52 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 29 of 111 (529189)
10-08-2009 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jazzns
10-08-2009 2:44 PM


Re: Umm..No!
I wanted to start a topic on this some time ago, but didn't have the time to unfortunately.
Modern science as we know it originated from the christian wordview in europe. If you believe that the world is but someone elses dream, it won't give you the foudation required to go out and study it, because at any moment the dream can change.
But if you believe in an eternal God who never changes, and who upholds his creation, then it gives who the foundations and axioms needed to go out and observe the world, because you will expect it to be consistent an ordered, and that it will contain laws that will not change.
The ancient greek is probably a hybrid between the two former, since although their worldview did encourage the observation of nature, it also put huge philosophical restrictions on what they should be observing. The planets HAD to move in perfect circles, because the circle was the purest form of movement in their view. Aristotle's idea of what composed mater (namely fire,water,earth and air) was purely philosophical and had no basis in any sort of scientific inquiry. The philosophical appeal was the only reason this view was favored over Democritus's atom theory. The existence of irrational numbers in mathematics was first rejected because of philosophical objections.
Of course, I could go on and on, from the false impression of the church in Galileo's time to the historical revisionism of Columbus's story. If their is a genuine interest to discuss this (not debate), then I'll start a thread on it as soon as I can.

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 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 10-08-2009 2:44 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 111 (529191)
10-08-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by slevesque
10-08-2009 3:03 PM


Re: Umm..No!
I would participate in a thread on that topic.
The scientific process is most certainly pre-Christian. You obviously moved the goal posts a little bit by saying "modern science as we know it" which can mean just about anything you want it to. Please take that in mind when you start your topic.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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 Message 29 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 3:03 PM slevesque has replied

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