Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,435 Year: 3,692/9,624 Month: 563/974 Week: 176/276 Day: 16/34 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Assumptions of ToE
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3259 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 19 of 32 (530403)
10-13-2009 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by slevesque
10-12-2009 10:05 PM


When is the last time someone asked a question like this: can the small changes that we observe today be extrapolated to big changes with enough time?
The assumption would be that there is some unknown mechanism that would stop this. Assuming the non-existence of an unknown is not exactly an assumption, it's an evidentiary based belief, and would only require the tiniest bit of evidence to change minds. The fact that we haven't found any indication that little changes CAN'T build up to large changes is, in fact, an indication that one doesn't exist.
Or when the new field of genetics was being discovered, did anyone ask if their was a barrier between species or families, that would prevent such thing from happening?
Again, the defualt position is that such things do not exist until any sort of evidence emerges to favor it. Why would we wonder if something for which we have no evidence exists? Should we also hold experiments to test whether there is an invisible gargoyle that eats any animal that has more than X number of mutations from it's founder population? Why is the fact that no one considers that not an assumption of the ToE as well?
A second assumptions is that the earth is old.
I think this is the third assumption, but then again, it's not really an assumption of the ToE. The ToE doesn't NEED long times to work, but the fact that geology has all but proven that we HAVE long times makes evolution's job easier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by slevesque, posted 10-12-2009 10:05 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by slevesque, posted 10-13-2009 12:43 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3259 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 24 of 32 (530441)
10-13-2009 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by slevesque
10-13-2009 12:43 PM


I would find that the up and down variation we see in species would be good evidence that such changes cannot accumulate. This can be seen in finch beaks: They go from small to big during half the year, then from big to small the other half. No net accumulation. Also in bacteria, where you can make them adapt to a given environment at the lose of other properties, only to put them back in another environment where they lose their 'novel' adaptation to regain the previous one that was lost. Again, no net accumulation.
This is an assumption, on your part. We've seen mutations accumulate, we've seen bacteria lose an ability, then gain the ability back...but through a different process, showing that two mutations (at least) have happened which have accumulated. The fact that it can do the same thing doesn't mean it does so in the same way. Doing something in a novel way is indeed an accumulation of mutations.
If your argument was to be correct, then it would mean ''no assumptions allowed'' in science. Because if someone would assume something, than he would have to also assume everything that is 'assumable'. Clearly this is fallacious, and in fact is it the same type of fallacy as 'If you believe in God, then you have to believe in pink unicorns''.
No, you can make an assumption as a starting point in an experiment or hypothesis, but you then have to state that as an assumption, or even better, go back and find some basis on which to hold the assumption. Abiogenesis research often relies on assumptions about the early atmosphere of the Earth. These assumptions are stated outright, for example, "In a reducing atmosphere, such and such a reaction will lead to X amino acids." It is understood that if it turns out Earth didn't have a reducing atmosphere, this probably didn't happen...though it could be useful if we find another planet with a reducing atmosphere.
I can readily assume something that I find plausible, and in this case the existence of such a genetic barrier is very much plausible, in order to go out and look if it is a reality.
Very true. You can make an assumption...or hypothesis...and then look for evidence of it. But if I, as another scientist, don't take your idea into account until you provide evidence for it, I'm not making an assumption, I'm refraining from making one. Without evidence, the assumption is the statement of existence, not the statement of exclusion. Excluding a process or agent may turn out to be wrong, but I wouldn't call it an assumption...othewrwise, everything we do is based upon an infinite array of assumptions, making the whole argument pointless.
See previous post. I'll add that evolution does need a lot of time in order to go from original cell to thinking human.
Not necessarily, that's an assumtion. I could imagine a 1-in-a-gajillion shot where a single cell spontaneously mutates with the exact DNA sequence of modern humans and happens to be in an environment so nutrient rich that the fetus can grow and develop...or maybe there is a larger mutation that creates a womb-like environment inside this nutrient rich area...unlikely, but I would never venture to say that it requires a lot of time, it just so happens that the path taken is one that used a lot of time, and since we see there was a lot of time, there's no contradiction here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by slevesque, posted 10-13-2009 12:43 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024