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Author Topic:   Separating belief in ET life from belief in UFOs
Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 16 of 36 (529629)
10-09-2009 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
10-08-2009 6:13 PM


Briterican writes:

Now... why is it that laymen seem to think this means that I believe in UFOs?


Because the average layman is a stupid idiot when it comes to logic? (in my experience anyway. Most people I meet are severely lacking in logic.)

To my way of thinking, the idea that we, on this tiny speck of a world, would be visited by advanced extraterrestrial life, presumably for no purpose more nefarious than to watch our television and cuddle up to our politicians, is ludicrous.

It is, quite ludicrous.

This may not warrant being a topic, but I'm just curious if anyone else has encountered this anomaly, and/or how you would respond to it.p

I try to explain logic to them. Most of the time they get it. Sometimes they don't.

My standard response is that, short of some sort of warp-drive technology, the distances are simply too great to travel.

Yes, between galaxies, even with warpdrive, it would take too long. but still, within our own galaxy there could be other life.

To go one step further, even with some form of FTL travel, the immensity of our galaxy alone would make visitation astronomically (literally) unlikely.

Not form within our own galaxy. From other galaxies however, yes, I agree.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 10-08-2009 6:13 PM Briterican has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 17 of 36 (529674)
10-10-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
10-08-2009 6:13 PM


Ah, people from the stars...
Quite the contrary, I am confident the universe is teeming with life.

I concur. Also, alien life, especially intelligent life, would negate the many Christian's belief that life on Earth is special.

To my way of thinking, the idea that we, on this tiny speck of a world, would be visited by advanced extraterrestrial life, presumably for no purpose more nefarious than to watch our television and cuddle up to our politicians, is ludicrous.

I would also agree with this statement, provisionally. Since an alien intelligence would have likely developed under environmental pressures, the chance that any alien intelligence is benevolent is slim. More probable is that the alien intelligence would use their advanced weaponry to begin colonization of this new world with such obviously primitive beings. After all, how intelligent could the people on this planet be if some of them still believe that their planet is circled by the sun. Since this has not occurred, this is why all of you should not believe that an alien intelligence has visited your planet.

The provision is that humans might be considered something akin to chimps on tv, that is, entertainment or something to be studied. Perhaps aliens are right there on the moon peering through telescopes watching the wackiness that is humanity and laughing their asses off on the extraterrestrial version of couches or flying around drunk trying to see if they can scare the local population into believing something ridiculous, like crop circles are a message from ET or abducting humans in an attempt to answer questions that the alien inteligence may have about Life, the Universe, and Everything. But that's ridiculous.

And that's why you, gentle humans, must never believe that aliens are visiting earth and watching the planet.

Ever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 10-08-2009 6:13 PM Briterican has not yet responded

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 18 of 36 (529680)
10-10-2009 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Huntard
10-09-2009 10:05 PM


but UFO's are real...they're just probably spaceships
Briterican writes:

Now... why is it that laymen seem to think this means that I believe in UFOs?

because UFO's exist. A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object - that's something flying that we don't recognize immediately. The truth is it's usually the moon, venus, swamp-gas, airplanes and other mundane things. Sometimes it's some new aircraft the army doesn't want you to know about just yet. Sometimes it's weather balloons, and sometimes it's tricks by kids on the credulous public.

But they "exist".

What it probably ISN'T is an alien spacecraft.

Having said that, the universe is a big place. I mean really big. (Insert superfluous superlatives here) big. Given the possibility that life can exist is 100%, I find it likely that life DOES exist elsewhere. Some of that life may be intelligent. Some of that intelligent life may have found it's way around the universal speed limit...

Why would they come here? Well I find it logical they'd come here to laugh, gawp and investigate. Wouldn't we do the same? Don't we do exactly the same? Granted, we do it at the bottom of the ocean or high in the mountains or in the jungle, not the other end of the third spiral arm of the milky way, but we would if we could.

I'm tentatively hopeful - I won't say it's impossible because our best mathematicians say it's not, just really, non-trivially difficult at this point in time.

If you want to call that the atheist's version of believing in fairy-tales go ahead, but it keeps me warm at night.

I just hope they don't really do the anal probing thing.

That's a bit much.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Huntard, posted 10-09-2009 10:05 PM Huntard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by greyseal, posted 10-11-2009 3:30 PM greyseal has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 19 of 36 (529990)
10-11-2009 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by greyseal
10-10-2009 4:41 AM


Re: but UFO's are real...they're just probably (NOT) spaceships
I so, so missed out the important word!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by greyseal, posted 10-10-2009 4:41 AM greyseal has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1318 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 20 of 36 (530130)
10-12-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by slevesque
10-09-2009 6:22 PM


EDIT: Let's say for the sake of the discussion, that the gap would not be filled in by such other auxiliary stories. How would you perceive it?

As an interesting question to investigate. I'd want to see what makes the brains of the Christian different from the brains of the non-Christian. Especially since sleep paralysis is the mechanism by which we don't act out our dreams, I would find it very difficult to figure out how Christians would escape from that condition while not all being sleep walkers...


This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 36 (530162)
10-12-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
10-08-2009 6:13 PM


We are but one tiny planet on one tiny sun in a galaxy of 100 billion stars. We estimate that there are at least 100 billion other galaxies visible to us in the universe. 100 billion x 100 billion is a bloody lot of stars (of course I'm generalising, the actual figure is probably orders of magnitude higher). Given this evidence, I find it highly unlikely that we would be the only bastion of life in the universe. Quite the contrary, I am confident the universe is teeming with life.

Hrm, that last line seems like a bit of a stretch... I don't think we have enough data to be confident in the teemingness of life in the Universe. But yeah, I think life's out there too.

Now... why is it that laymen seem to think this means that I believe in UFOs?

They do? Really!? Who? Where?

Seems like quite the non-sequitor.

This may not warrant being a topic, but I'm just curious if anyone else has encountered this anomaly, and/or how you would respond to it.

I've never witnessed this anomaly.

My standard response is that, short of some sort of warp-drive technology, the distances are simply too great to travel. To go one step further, even with some form of FTL travel, the immensity of our galaxy alone would make visitation astronomically (literally) unlikely.

I don't think we should limits that alien's technology with our own technological understandings.

To my way of thinking, the idea that we, on this tiny speck of a world, would be visited by advanced extraterrestrial life, presumably for no purpose more nefarious than to watch our television and cuddle up to our politicians, is ludicrous.

I can see that, but there was a UFO really close to my house. I live a short distance east of St. Louis, MO.

Back in 2000, a good friend of mine saw a UFO. He told it about us, like, the next day or so. He said there was a huge black triangle floating in the sky.

Later, the news reports came out and there's websites about it:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1288.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case277.htm
http://dbarkertv.com/Highland%20UFO%202006.htm

They had multiple police departments reporting this thing too. I saw something about it on TV and recognized the dispatcher they interviewed as someone I've met. I don't doubt that there really was a black triangle floating in the sky that night.

Now, I don't think this is proof of alien visitation, but it does seem like a plausible explanation.

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 10-08-2009 6:13 PM Briterican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Briterican, posted 10-12-2009 5:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 22 of 36 (530219)
10-12-2009 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
10-12-2009 2:56 PM


Thanks for the reply
Now... why is it that laymen seem to think this means that I believe in UFOs?

They do? Really!? Who? Where?

Seems like quite the non-sequitor.

I suppose that I have really only encountered this specific thing with one person: Robert R. Laymen. Just kidding that's not really his name.

I think that it's simply the case that I find these two points, my position (the conviction that life exists elsewhere in the universe) and the pop culture position (that it visits us regularly) to be distinctly separate and I wish that distinction was more clearly defined.

They had multiple police departments reporting this thing too. I saw something about it on TV and recognized the dispatcher they interviewed as someone I've met. I don't doubt that there really was a black triangle floating in the sky that night.

Now, I don't think this is proof of alien visitation, but it does seem like a plausible explanation.

What do you think?

Well you've got me cornered here, as you have probably already guessed what my thoughts would be. I would be far more inclined to attribute a clearly defined black triangle craft to some sort of earthly origin (military gadget or hoax). These black triangle reports get the Aurora guys all excited hehe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_%28aircraft%29

Thanks very much for your reply and for a great forum. I'm still just getting my feet wet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2009 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2009 5:53 PM Briterican has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 36 (530225)
10-12-2009 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Briterican
10-12-2009 5:39 PM


Re: Thanks for the reply
I think that it's simply the case that I find these two points, my position (the conviction that life exists elsewhere in the universe) and the pop culture position (that it visits us regularly) to be distinctly separate and I wish that distinction was more clearly defined.

I get it. I guess I just haven't encountered the blurred distinction yet.

They seem seperate enough to me.

Well you've got me cornered here, as you have probably already guessed what my thoughts would be.

No, I'm sincerely interested.

would be far more inclined to attribute a clearly defined black triangle craft to some sort of earthly origin (military gadget or hoax).

These black triangle reports get the Aurora guys all excited hehe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_%28aircraft%29

I doubt it could have been a hoax. Multiple police departments were investigating it simultaneously as it crossed through jurisdictions.

And it moved too slow to be a jet... It had some kind of hovering ability.

Try again?

What the hell could it have been?

Thanks very much for your reply and for a great forum. I'm still just getting my feet wet.

Best forum online, imho.

Your feet are wet enough, just dive right in!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Briterican, posted 10-12-2009 5:39 PM Briterican has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 10-12-2009 6:50 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 24 of 36 (530250)
10-12-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by New Cat's Eye
10-12-2009 5:53 PM


Oh the endless possibilities
And it moved too slow to be a jet... It had some kind of hovering ability.

Try again?

What the hell could it have been?

The IPU on a black hoverboard?

- Oni

Btw, that "homos" line in the other thread was hilarious!

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8839
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 25 of 36 (530251)
10-12-2009 6:56 PM


Observing a Flying Saucer
About 40 years ago I saw a flying saucer. Well, sort of.

The radio was reporting something flying over Vancouver. It was moving very fast and making sudden turns. It had windows with flashing lights of different colors.

Then the guy renting the upstairs from my parents yelled that he could see it. Of course, I ran up about 5 stairs at a time to see.

For the next 4 or 5 minutes I stood shoulder to shoulder with him. He was hoping up and down and pointing at it. It was moving fast, changing direction and had flashing lights. It was exactly as described on the radio. At least that is what he was telling me.

I looked at the dark night sky with clouds from a passing storm scuttling quickly across the sky. I could not see it at all.

Over and over he pointed; I looked down his arm to where he was pointing. No flying saucer.

Then finally, finally I asked if he meant the light that was just above such and such a roof top. Yes! YES! he yells.

Venus sat there in the night sky, not moving at all as the clouds whisked by giving an impression of it moving. It glittered a little in the sky with the wind and clouds.

You can give me as much eye-witness testimony as you want. It will not budge me an inch.


Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-14-2009 10:26 AM NosyNed has responded
 Message 36 by Briterican, posted 10-20-2009 2:26 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 36 (530625)
10-14-2009 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by NosyNed
10-12-2009 6:56 PM


Re: Observing a Flying Saucer
You can give me as much eye-witness testimony as you want. It will not budge me an inch.

Budge you from not accepting alien visitation or budge you from not accepting that something was actually there being witnessed?

I agree that it doesn't directly support the visitation but why deny that there was indeed a big black floating triangle in the sky above Highland, IL in 2000?

And what could it possibly have been? It had to be some kind of vessel or something...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 10-12-2009 6:56 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by NosyNed, posted 10-14-2009 11:33 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8839
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 27 of 36 (530638)
10-14-2009 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
10-14-2009 10:26 AM


Black whatsits
Budge you from not accepting alien visitation or budge you from not accepting that something was actually there being witnessed?

I agree that it doesn't directly support the visitation but why deny that there was indeed a big black floating triangle in the sky above Highland, IL in 2000?

And what could it possibly have been? It had to be some kind of vessel or something...

It sure doesn't support alien visitation on only eye-witness accounts.

That there was something there is at least not too unlikely.

That it was a big black floating triangle and not a medium sized, grey cloud of some sort of polygonal shape is not determinable given what many, many people have seen when looking at something very, very different.

It is much more likely that they didn't see what they think they saw than it was a vessel of any kind. That has been demonstrated in the lab many times and out in the world very often too.

What you think you see is not at all what you see in very many cases. (Technically in all cases but for practical purposes it is ok)

ABE
I have seen, very clearly and for several minutes a pond that was not there at all. I figured out after how I had been fooled. It is very interesting to experience. There was a small forested canyon and I very definitely (to my bewilderment since I had hiked there often) saw a pond of many 100's of square feet right in front of me less than 20 or so feet away.

Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-14-2009 10:26 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 28 of 36 (531173)
10-16-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by NosyNed
10-14-2009 11:33 AM


Re: Black whatsits
That there was something there is at least not too unlikely.

I disagree.

That there were multiple poice departments reporting and investigating it suggests that there was actually something there. I've heard the calls to the dispatcher, from independent officers, that they were seeing something actual.

The clincher for me, is that a personal friend of mine described it before it broke the news in the same way that the officers on the scene were reported as describing it. That's an impossible coincidence.

That it was a big black floating triangle and not a medium sized, grey cloud of some sort of polygonal shape is not determinable given what many, many people have seen when looking at something very, very different.

It might not be determinable, but to say that its unlikely that they were seeing an actual big black floating triangle in the sky is unreasonable. I think you have too much doubt in people.

Its almost as if you want to disbelieve that it could be there so you fall back on the default reason of "they must have been mistaken".

I think multiple independent and credible witnesses support the actual existence of the claimed object.

For you to claim that the object wasn't there, without any actual evidence other than doubt and the standard "they must be mistaken", is unreasonable in my opinion.

Not to bring up old shit but, isn't this a prime example of psuedoskepticism?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NosyNed, posted 10-14-2009 11:33 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Izanagi, posted 10-16-2009 12:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 29 of 36 (531180)
10-16-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
10-16-2009 11:38 AM


Re: Black whatsits
Remember the Great NJ UFO hoax of 2009? A bunch of people in Morris County saw bright lights on Jan 5 which they thought was a UFO. It turned out it was a social experiment concocted by two men who launched 5 flares attached to 5 helium balloons. The two men actually videotaped the whole "experiment" and you can watch it at the link I posted.

It might not be determinable, but to say that its unlikely that they were seeing an actual big black floating triangle in the sky is unreasonable. I think you have too much doubt in people.

Its almost as if you want to disbelieve that it could be there so you fall back on the default reason of "they must have been mistaken".

I think multiple independent and credible witnesses support the actual existence of the claimed object.


The thing is, like the two guys said, people see what they want to see. That's not to say the people who saw the black triangle were mistaken and didn't actually see anything. But people tend to jump to conclusions without knowing the facts based on what they want to have actually happened. It's a common occurrence and may have been beneficial to our survival in the days when our ancestors roamed the savannah and saw grass twitching.

In this day and age, however, we know that there are other possible explanations. Without knowing all the facts, we can't even know which was the real explanation. For all we know, it could have been a B2 bomber or the test flight of a new aircraft. Just don't expect the government to tell you.

Skepticism is usually a good choice when a person doesn't have all the information. Still, if there's no harm in believing something, then by all means believe in it.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2009 11:38 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-16-2009 12:36 PM Izanagi has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 36 (531185)
10-16-2009 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Izanagi
10-16-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Black whatsits
The thing is, like the two guys said, people see what they want to see. That's not to say the people who saw the black triangle were mistaken and didn't actually see anything. But people tend to jump to conclusions without knowing the facts based on what they want to have actually happened.

Sure. But cops out on patrol investigating the phenomenon are gonna be pretty damn objective about the case. And that we had independent departments from different cities investigating it as an actual big black floating triangle in the sky. This was not as an alien investigation, but an I don't know what this is but I'm gonna follow it in my squad car and keep reporting what I'm seeing investigation.

There had to be an actual big black floating triangle up there.

In this day and age, however, we know that there are other possible explanations. Without knowing all the facts, we can't even know which was the real explanation. For all we know, it could have been a B2 bomber or the test flight of a new aircraft. Just don't expect the government to tell you.

Well B2 can't fly that slow, but yeah, it could have been a man made aircraft.

My point was:

quote:
I agree that it doesn't directly support the (alien) visitation but why deny that there was indeed a big black floating triangle in the sky above Highland, IL in 2000?

Skepticism is usually a good choice when a person doesn't have all the information. Still, if there's no harm in believing something, then by all means believe in it.

Yeah, but people are taking "skepticism" too far when they think that its more likely that multiple independ witness were mistakenly describing the exact same vessel rather than there being an actual vessel there in the first place. I don't even think its rightly called "skepticism" at that point, more like unreasonable doubt, or "psuedoskepticism", but lets not get into that here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Izanagi, posted 10-16-2009 12:13 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Izanagi, posted 10-16-2009 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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